Runners score out of order

[ArchAngel72]

Ok LL Majors (11-12u)

Runners on 2nd and 3rd , 1 out I am working solo

Batter hits a ball in the gap over the 2nd baseman’s head.  I am watching the runners keeping very darn good care to watch the runners coming home and the kid running to1st 

I saw R3 miss the plate R2 had touched 3rd and crossed and touched the plate I see Batter touch 1st and head for 2nd on the out fields wild throw home. 

I keep watching the plate and r3. He comes back to the plate and purposely stomps on the plate ( as if to say I know I missed it) 

Play stops  I call time and announce R3 is out as he touched the plate after the R2 and thus R2 has passed R3 on the base path (Now  I am running this off from one base runner passing another)

1st I know I called the wrong runner out after some research I should have called the R2 out for passing R3.

but all things aside My thinking is If the R3 had not come back and purposely tagged the plate  and just walked to the dugout I leave it alone and don’t say anything unless they appeal to the plate and the missed tag of home.  But because he purposely tagged it and its now out of order I banged them for runners passing the runner in front of them.

SO?

Aside from my gaf at calling the wrong runner out. Did I apply that correctly?

 

sigh .. here comes the pain I can feel it..

[DevildogUmp]

Some of the more experienced members may correct me, but:

1. Runners are assumed to have touched the plate once they have passed it (subject to out on appeal). So at that point, R3 has scored.

2. R2 scoring negates R3's ability to retouch to correct his mistake.

3. Both R3 and R2 have scored and therefore are no longer baserunners, rather simply offensive players.

Therefore, you can't have passing and unfortunately I think you kicked it.

[The Man in Blue]

@DevildogUmp nailed my thoughts ... once R2 scored, R3 could not legally return to touch the plate.

 

So the next logical question ... could the defense properly appeal the missed base after he came back and stomped on it?  I’m thinking yes.

[Rich Ives]

53 minutes ago, The Man in Blue said:

@DevildogUmp nailed my thoughts ... once R2 scored, R3 could not legally return to touch the plate.

 

So the next logical question ... could the defense properly appeal the missed base after he came back and stomped on it?  I’m thinking yes.

Yes

 

[MadMax]

3 hours ago, ArchAngel72 said:

I call time and announce R3 is out as he touched the plate after the R2 and thus R2 has passed R3 on the base path (Now  I am running this off from one base runner passing another)

Ugh. 

As @DevildogUmp said in his third point, Runners are no longer subject to passing once they “touch” the plate. They are also assumed to have scored, barring an appeal or an immediate play (such as avoiding a tag at the plate, and PU, seeing and judging this play, does not signal/call Safe or Out).

So, no calling of Time necessary as it relates to this. In fact, an Appeal needs to be a Live Ball Appeal, so the calling of Time just complicated things. And yes, this is a misapplication of the Rules... or a kick.

Now, worth mentioning, because R2 scored after R3, it therefore prevents R3 from rectifying his missed touch. We are to ignore any touches R3 makes, at this point. If a participant of the defensive team knows the Rules (and, let’s face it, the kids don’t, and most coaches don’t), and makes a valid (read: Live ball) appeal, then we call R3 out (make sure to specify R3) and that run comes off the board. Brace yourself, because you will get a confrontation with a/the coach(es) of the offensive team, mitigated only by your citing and stalwart explaining of the Rules.

[ArchAngel72]

9 hours ago, Jimurray said:

Speaking of research I'm assuming you looked in the green book and found your answer. But why wait until you pull something out of your rear to make a ruling on the field. Why not RTFM occasionally until you have read the whole thing except for scorekeeping. After reading it you, as well as most of us, still will forget some stuff but it's a good habit to get into.

 

I looked in the green book and I do look in the manual occasionally, I noticed no one here pointed or copied the section in the manual where this is explained.  But thanks for the correction on how I thought it was supposed to go down, I mistakenly thought I had a passing the runner situation, But I will look again

[Jimurray]

52 minutes ago, ArchAngel72 said:

 

I looked in the green book and I do look in the manual occasionally, I noticed no one here pointed or copied the section in the manual where this is explained.  But thanks for the correction on how I thought it was supposed to go down, I mistakenly thought I had a passing the runner situation, But I will look again

What I am saying is that many new umpires get trained via PP or some other method to go thru the rulebook and they disregard the advice usually also given when training new umps, that training being only the start of their learning, to put the rulebook/s on the toilet tank and read a few pages, other than scorekeeping, every BM. I don't know if you were given that advice or even if they told you what to do with the scorekeeping pages. Read all of the book, more than once.

[DevildogUmp]

There is no one rule that cover this situation. I think part of what @Jimurray is saying about reading the rules books and manuals consistently is that you need to understand when you need to take different parts of the rule book together in order to make an informed decision. I don't have an electronic version of the rule book on this computer so I can't cut and paste the LL rules and I am not cool enough to have rule numbers memorized, but here is where I get my interpretation:

1. A runner is assumed to have touched any and all bases that they have passed.

2. A runner who has scored cannot be guilty of runner's interference, a player who has scored on the play and subsequently interferes is interference by an offensive player authorized to be on the field; therefore, a player who has legal scored is no longer a runner and thus cannot be found guilty of running infractions.

 

Matt

[JSam21]

31 minutes ago, DevildogUmp said:

There is no one rule that cover this situation. I think part of what @Jimurray is saying about reading the rules books and manuals consistently is that you need to understand when you need to take different parts of the rule book together in order to make an informed decision. I don't have an electronic version of the rule book on this computer so I can't cut and paste the LL rules and I am not cool enough to have rule numbers memorized, but here is where I get my interpretation:

1. A runner is assumed to have touched any and all bases that they have passed.

2. A runner who has scored cannot be guilty of runner's interference, a player who has scored on the play and subsequently interferes is interference by an offensive player authorized to be on the field; therefore, a player who has legal scored is no longer a runner and thus cannot be found guilty of running infractions.

 

Matt

The vast majority don’t have rule numbers memorized... but we can still quote the rules.

A runner who has scored falls under the same rules as a retired base runner... not authorized personnel. 

[Mussgrass]

A mechanics question here. When R3 comes back and stomps on the plate, is the correct signal "safe" or nothing? 

[grayhawk]

31 minutes ago, Mussgrass said:

A mechanics question here. When R3 comes back and stomps on the plate, is the correct signal "safe" or nothing? 

Do nothing.  Think of it this way - if he had touched the plate on his first time by, and then come back and stomped on the plate after a following runner scored, what would you do?

[The Man in Blue]

The best mechanic is to brace yourself for the coming storm ... get your thoughts in order, remain calm, and prepare your words.

[agdz59]

On 9/14/2019 at 7:32 AM, Jimurray said:

Speaking of research I'm assuming you looked in the green book and found your answer. But why wait until you pull something out of your rear to make a ruling on the field. Why not RTFM occasionally until you have read the whole thing except for scorekeeping. After reading it you, as well as most of us, still will forget some stuff but it's a good habit to get into.

There are so many of us newbies or close to newbies that are doing our best to learn.  If you waited for everyone to read and grok all the rules of baseball - much less the interpretations given the ambiguities therein - you wouldn't have enough umpires for all the games played. 

[Jimurray]

6 minutes ago, agdz59 said:

There are so many of us newbies or close to newbies that are doing our best to learn.  If you waited for everyone to read and grok all the rules of baseball - much less the interpretations given the ambiguities therein - you wouldn't have enough umpires for all the games played. 

Hey, even newbies have to have a BM. 3 pages at a time. 

[The Man in Blue]

1 hour ago, Jimurray said:

Hey, even newbies have to have a BM. 3 pages at a time. 

One more reason we don’t want coaches bringing the book out on the field ... who knows where it has been?  

[The Man in Blue]

1 hour ago, agdz59 said:

There are so many of us newbies or close to newbies that are doing our best to learn.  If you waited for everyone to read and grok all the rules of baseball - much less the interpretations given the ambiguities therein - you wouldn't have enough umpires for all the games played. 

That raises an interesting question on methods of training, agdz59.  Is it better to try to read the book first or go out and do games first?  That is always a challenge in training (most anything).  Does the reading have enough benefit without context?  Is the task too daunting without pre-learning?

It all amounts to how you learn and the resources you have around you.  I’m an advocate of “do it, then read and learn what you did”.  Too many new umpires (and older ones) never open the book.  They ask other people and assume the information is good.  Nothing wrong with asking, but use the opportunity to learn your way around book also.

 

[spark2212]

On 9/13/2019 at 11:55 PM, DevildogUmp said:

Some of the more experienced members may correct me, but:

1. Runners are assumed to have touched the plate once they have passed it (subject to out on appeal). So at that point, R3 has scored.

2. R2 scoring negates R3's ability to retouch to correct his mistake.

3. Both R3 and R2 have scored and therefore are no longer baserunners, rather simply offensive players.

Therefore, you can't have passing and unfortunately I think you kicked it.

Furthermore, while R3’s actions certainly call attention to the whole debacle, without a defensive appeal is there a reason to change the call?

[noumpere]

14 hours ago, spark2212 said:

Furthermore, while R3’s actions certainly call attention to the whole debacle, without a defensive appeal is there a reason to change the call?

No.

[spark2212]

On 9/15/2019 at 8:44 PM, The Man in Blue said:

That raises an interesting question on methods of training, agdz59.  Is it better to try to read the book first or go out and do games first?  That is always a challenge in training (most anything).  Does the reading have enough benefit without context?  Is the task too daunting without pre-learning?

It all amounts to how you learn and the resources you have around you.  I’m an advocate of “do it, then read and learn what you did”.  Too many new umpires (and older ones) never open the book.  They ask other people and assume the information is good.  Nothing wrong with asking, but use the opportunity to learn your way around book also.

 

I’m like the opposite. I’m not an umpire, but I’ve read the book from cover to cover multiple times, and yet I still come here to ask questions.

[Jimurray]

11 hours ago, ArchAngel72 said:

Ok LL Majors (11-12u)

Runners on 2nd and 3rd , 1 out I am working solo

Batter hits a ball in the gap over the 2nd baseman’s head.  I am watching the runners keeping very darn good care to watch the runners coming home and the kid running to1st 

I saw R3 miss the plate R2 had touched 3rd and crossed and touched the plate I see Batter touch 1st and head for 2nd on the out fields wild throw home. 

I keep watching the plate and r3. He comes back to the plate and purposely stomps on the plate ( as if to say I know I missed it) 

Play stops  I call time and announce R3 is out as he touched the plate after the R2 and thus R2 has passed R3 on the base path (Now  I am running this off from one base runner passing another)

1st I know I called the wrong runner out after some research I should have called the R2 out for passing R3.

but all things aside My thinking is If the R3 had not come back and purposely tagged the plate  and just walked to the dugout I leave it alone and don’t say anything unless they appeal to the plate and the missed tag of home.  But because he purposely tagged it and its now out of order I banged them for runners passing the runner in front of them.

SO?

Aside from my gaf at calling the wrong runner out. Did I apply that correctly?

 

sigh .. here comes the pain I can feel it..

Speaking of research I'm assuming you looked in the green book and found your answer. But why wait until you pull something out of your rear to make a ruling on the field. Why not RTFM occasionally until you have read the whole thing except for scorekeeping. After reading it you, as well as most of us, still will forget some stuff but it's a good habit to get into.