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How to award bases


Guest Willis
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OBR, no outs, R1.  R1 is attempting to steal second when the batter hits to deep left field.  R1, slides safely into second when F7 catches the ball then, and then throws it out of play while R1 is still standing on second.  At this time R1 has made no attempt to return to first to tag up.  Since the base award is two bases from the time of throw and R1 is on second, do you look at him and say, "you are awarded third"?  Or do you say something like "you go to the plate?"  If you tell the runner that you have awarded him home, do you amend that award to third if he returns to tag up at first?

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38 minutes ago, ArchAngel72 said:

 

I just see a crap show after he goes home, they appeal and then the at bat manager is protesting because you told him "go home"

 

I really do see your point, but with respect to the crap show, my answer is, "So what?"  We are not responsible for the game participants' lack of rules knowledge and ignorance is no excuse for them to blame us for their deficiencies.  Make the proper award, and handle your business if they voice their displeasure when the runner is called out on appeal.  Not my circus, not my monkeys.  

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4 minutes ago, grayhawk said:

I really do see your point, but with respect to the crap show, my answer is, "So what?"  We are not responsible for the game participants' lack of rules knowledge and ignorance is no excuse for them to blame us for their deficiencies.  Make the proper award, and handle your business if they voice their displeasure when the runner is called out on appeal.  Not my circus, not my monkeys.  

This is what I feel. I'm not going to cater to ignorance by doing something less correct.

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46 minutes ago, grayhawk said:

I really do see your point, but with respect to the crap show, my answer is, "So what?"  We are not responsible for the game participants' lack of rules knowledge and ignorance is no excuse for them to blame us for their deficiencies.  Make the proper award, and handle your business if they voice their displeasure when the runner is called out on appeal.  Not my circus, not my monkeys.  

But hang on is it truly a "lack of knowledge of rules" when you say to a player "You home" and he/she obeys you and then they get called out for it?

See to me its a bad "command"  you are as an umpire setting the kid up for failure.  Now that's just me I'm chatting about this because I see and understand what you are saying and I get that's how it is. But just this one instance does that not go against some moral code?  I mean I put myself at that point and say "You Home"  he gets home we put the ball in play the other team appeals to 1st and he/she is banged out.  I feel like a complete yutz cause I told him basically "free ride to home" 

sigh. "not your circus, not your monkeys" But you're the acting ringleader for that night.

 

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11 minutes ago, ArchAngel72 said:

But hang on is it truly a "lack of knowledge of rules" when you say to a player "You home" and he/she obeys you and then they get called out for it?

See to me its a bad "command"  you are as an umpire setting the kid up for failure.  Now that's just me I'm chatting about this because I see and understand what you are saying and I get that's how it is. But just this one instance does that not go against some moral code?  I mean I put myself at that point and say "You Home"  he gets home we put the ball in play the other team appeals to 1st and he/she is banged out.  I feel like a complete yutz cause I told him basically "free ride to home" 

sigh. "not your circus, not your monkeys" But you're the acting ringleader for that night.

 

Yes, it is 100% lack of rules knowledge.  If they don't know that they are required to retouch the base they left too soon, then they lack a fundamental understanding of the rules.  Definitely not my problem.

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2 minutes ago, grayhawk said:

Yes, it is 100% lack of rules knowledge.  If they don't know that they are required to retouch the base they left too soon, then they lack a fundamental understanding of the rules.  Definitely not my problem.

 

please forgive me then  at my level and this is my coin test  I bounce these things off would a 10 year old understand it.

 

my fault as I was assessing this to LL where an errantly thrown ball over the right side fence or dugout is probably going to happen a lot more than other leagues

Op said OBR 

I guess my own feelings are I would not begrudge a 10u kid whom I said "You Home"  takes off and rounds 3rd and goes home not thinking about anything else.

where as a kid whos 17 yrs old and playing HS ball well ok then yeah they ought to know better 

but then again maybe he's a nervous kid and gets worried about disregarding the "orders" of an umpire.  

 

anyway just kicking this around here Im wrong in my feelings on the matter I guess

 

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please forgive me then  at my level and this is my coin test  I bounce these things off would a 10 year old understand it.
 
my fault as I was assessing this to LL where an errantly thrown ball over the right side fence or dugout is probably going to happen a lot more than other leagues
Op said OBR 
I guess my own feelings are I would not begrudge a 10u kid whom I said "You Home"  takes off and rounds 3rd and goes home not thinking about anything else.
where as a kid whos 17 yrs old and playing HS ball well ok then yeah they ought to know better 
but then again maybe he's a nervous kid and gets worried about disregarding the "orders" of an umpire.  
 
anyway just kicking this around here Im wrong in my feelings on the matter I guess
 


In the LL games I used to work, there was always at least one adult base coach out there. I wouldn’t expect a 10 year old to know the rules, but his coach should definitely be telling him to go back and touch first.
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Just now, grayhawk said:

 


In the LL games I used to work, there was always at least one adult base coach out there. I wouldn’t expect a 10 year old to know the rules, but his coach should definitely be telling him to go back and touch first.

 

Oh agree

 

but your 10u kid was just told "You home"  by an official,  who is he going to follow at that point?

 

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21 minutes ago, ArchAngel72 said:

Oh agree

 

but your 10u kid was just told "You home"  by an official,  who is he going to follow at that point?

 

I would expect his coach. Maybe with some hesitation, but once he sees the umpire not react to his coach's order to retouch, I think he would. I don't know that he'd know why he is, but his coach told him to, so he would.

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In my experience, LL coaches are completely oblivious to base touches. Never had an appeal yet during 4 years of games. Holds true for the 10u and 12u tournaments I've done. 

In fact, I've often thought of pulling aside coaches I like and telling them to assign an assistant or sub to watch the touches. You see them missed all the time.

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In my experience, LL coaches are completely oblivious to base touches. Never had an appeal yet during 4 years of games. Holds true for the 10u and 12u tournaments I've done. 
In fact, I've often thought of pulling aside coaches I like and telling them to assign an assistant or sub to watch the touches. You see them missed all the time.


This was a base left too soon, which base coaches are usually aware of. We’ve all heard it, “Baaaaaaack!”
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52 minutes ago, grayhawk said:

 


This was a base left too soon, which base coaches are usually aware of. We’ve all heard it, “Baaaaaaack!”

 

Touches / too soon, they are both appeals I have never seen at the 10u-12u level. Coaches here just aren't doing this and they are missing a lot of outs.

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On 9/13/2019 at 12:49 PM, ArchAngel72 said:

 

This is why at this point I would point to the runner and say  "You 2 bases"  Let them decide where they are supposed to go and how they are supposed to act.  This way I am not pushing him anywhere but what he is awarded and its still up to him to play his path correctly. If I tell him he has home he goes back to 1st and retouches do I then tell him YOU 3rd?

 

I get what the verbage is and thus what is supposed to happen but to me it causes more possible issues after you have said "YOU Home"   because you either give him more bases than he should be allowed based on the retag, or you have to "correct yourself" and reissue the order based on him actually retagging.

 

sigh.. Im sure you see my point.  I'm just saying for this one instance maybe we should change the verbage to not tell a runner "what to do/where to go"

I just see a crap show after he goes home, they appeal and then the at bat manager is protesting because you told him "go home"

 

The players have a responsibility to know they have to retouch on a caught fly ball... 

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On 9/12/2019 at 1:44 PM, Guest Willis said:

OBR, no outs, R1.  R1 is attempting to steal second when the batter hits to deep left field.  R1, slides safely into second when F7 catches the ball then, and then throws it out of play while R1 is still standing on second.  At this time R1 has made no attempt to return to first to tag up.  Since the base award is two bases from the time of throw and R1 is on second, do you look at him and say, "you are awarded third"?  Or do you say something like "you go to the plate?"  If you tell the runner that you have awarded him home, do you amend that award to third if he returns to tag up at first?

I  think this is one of my favorite ask the ump questions in a while. Good debate and an overall interesting situation. It really exercises the mind. 

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On 9/13/2019 at 2:26 PM, ArchAngel72 said:

But hang on is it truly a "lack of knowledge of rules" when you say to a player "You home" and he/she obeys you and then they get called out for it?

See to me its a bad "command"  you are as an umpire setting the kid up for failure.  Now that's just me I'm chatting about this because I see and understand what you are saying and I get that's how it is. But just this one instance does that not go against some moral code?  I mean I put myself at that point and say "You Home"  he gets home we put the ball in play the other team appeals to 1st and he/she is banged out.  I feel like a complete yutz cause I told him basically "free ride to home" 

I see your side of the argument, but I just won't agree with it.  Here's the problem, Arch - if I can use your "first name" - as I see it:  you strike me as a guy that likes people.  Sometimes, this is a lot easier gig if you don't.

That sounds glib, and I'm not gonna lie when I say I'm using it for comedic effect.  But I tend to go out on the field not looking to make it a good time or a good day for the players and coaches.  I'm not looking to make it a bad day, either - I'm out there to call the game according to the rules.  If I want it to sound noble, I could say I'm out there for the game itself.  Sometimes, it DOES end up being just a good time for everyone involved.  Most of the time, it's a "neutral time" - everyone gets, or doesn't get, what the day gives them.  But my EJ totals are pretty tiny for the number of games I've done - other than the 30-dudes-at-once game I wrote about back in April or so - and I tend not to have too heated a time with participants in general.  I try to be READY for it, if it happens, but it seems rare.  I'm not sure why, but I've learned to ride that luck.

But to get away from my freshman philosophy discussion, fact is, ERR'BODY knows it's two bases on a ball thrown out of play.  So it's simple:  dude's on second?  Show him the way home.  Otherwise, you've "coached" him if you say otherwise.  And/or you're coaching the defense that "..... hey, something's kinda funny here!"  So don't do that.

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Not sure that it matters, but how/where did F7 throw the ball out of play?  Just curious if he was making a play at 1B.  I know that doesn’t change the rules, but to me that should have given the runner (and coach) a clue.  If the runner was making no effort to retouch, well, he’s on his own.  If he was headed back, I am likely to tell him to retouch.

Applying that to kids and lower level play.  Competitive play and/or old enough to know better are going to be on their own.  As Arch is driving at, there is something to be said for umpiring to the level of the game.

Agree with @HokieUmp also.  I’ not out there to be an ass, but I’m not out there for a social event either.

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12 hours ago, The Man in Blue said:

Not sure that it matters, but how/where did F7 throw the ball out of play?  Just curious if he was making a play at 1B.  I know that doesn’t change the rules, but to me that should have given the runner (and coach) a clue.  If the runner was making no effort to retouch, well, he’s on his own.  If he was headed back, I am likely to tell him to retouch.

Applying that to kids and lower level play.  Competitive play and/or old enough to know better are going to be on their own.  As Arch is driving at, there is something to be said for umpiring to the level of the game.

Agree with @HokieUmp also.  I’ not out there to be an ass, but I’m not out there for a social event either.

My assumption is they tried to make a throw to 1b and thru it OOP either over the fence along the side or into the dugout area.

 

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On 9/13/2019 at 2:19 PM, grayhawk said:

 


In the LL games I used to work, there was always at least one adult base coach out there. I wouldn’t expect a 10 year old to know the rules, but his coach should definitely be telling him to go back and touch first.

 

If the coach knows he missed first.

Don't get me wrong, I agree with the mechanic, because as @yawetag says, if you only award him third you open up a can of worms when the offensive coach asks why the runner is only getting one base.

But, it may be difficult for a ten year old to not only know the rule, but know enough to defy the umpire's instructions...although, out of the mouth of babes, I see the kid asking "I missed first, what do I do?"   But then again, at that level, I question the appropriateness of the appeal process altogether.  Give it another couple of years before throwing this at the kids.   I think Childress' position has merit at the right level, but you pretty much have to eliminate the appeal part to not cause problems. At U10 do we really want the game coming down to which daddy coach knows the rules better than the other daddy coach?....cause I know what it's like to be both daddy coaches.

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7 minutes ago, beerguy55 said:

If the coach knows he missed first.

Don't get me wrong, I agree with the mechanic, because as @yawetag says, if you only award him third you open up a can of worms when the offensive coach asks why the runner is only getting one base.

But, it may be difficult for a ten year old to not only know the rule, but know enough to defy the umpire's instructions...although, out of the mouth of babes, I see the kid asking "I missed first, what do I do?"   But then again, at that level, I question the appropriateness of the appeal process altogether.  Give it another couple of years before throwing this at the kids.   I think Childress' position has merit at the right level, but you pretty much have to eliminate the appeal part to not cause problems. At U10 do we really want the game coming down to which daddy coach knows the rules better than the other daddy coach?....cause I know what it's like to be both daddy coaches.

It wasn't a missed base, it was a base not properly retouched.  If the coach doesn't know that, then he's a liability as a base coach.

Well, if one coach knows the rules better than his opponent, shouldn't his players benefit from that knowledge?

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9 minutes ago, grayhawk said:

It wasn't a missed base, it was a base not properly retouched.  If the coach doesn't know that, then he's a liability as a base coach.

Well, if one coach knows the rules better than his opponent, shouldn't his players benefit from that knowledge?

To point one - Yeah - that's my bad on the OP...agree with you there - my point is definitely much more applicable on a missed base.

To point two - not at that level...and I've been on both sides of it, and I also still have memories of playing as a ten year old, which would have been my third season playing ball (still figuring things out, and two years yet from club ball)...I don't want games with ten year olds decided by how well one coach has memorized the rule book...at that level games shouldn't involve the term "out-coach".   There will be time for that later.  Yeah, sure, some kids will start grasping the rules more quickly than the others, just like some will grasp the fundamentals more quickly, but I think there are other priorities at that age - and whether or not you need to retouch first on a dead ball award isn't one of them.   I'll be happy if they run the bases counter clockwise.    At this level some of the coaches have less experience than some of the players.

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2 minutes ago, beerguy55 said:

To point one - Yeah - that's my bad on the OP...agree with you there - my point is definitely much more applicable on a missed base.

To point two - not at that level...and I've been on both sides of it, and I also still have memories of playing as a ten year old, which would have been my third season playing ball (still figuring things out, and two years yet from club ball)...I don't want games with ten year olds decided by how well one coach has memorized the rule book...at that level games shouldn't involve the term "out-coach".   There will be time for that later.  Yeah, sure, some kids will start grasping the rules more quickly than the others, just like some will grasp the fundamentals more quickly, but I think there are other priorities at that age - and whether or not you need to retouch first on a dead ball award isn't one of them.   I'll be happy if they run the bases counter clockwise.    At this level some of the coaches have less experience than some of the players.

I do understand your point, but as an umpire, I can't choose to ignore a rule when the more knowledgable coach uses it to his advantage.  I am not going to lie and say the player touched when he didn't. It's just not an option.  If the parents want to cause a stink about it, then they need to direct their displeasure towards the coach, not the umpire.

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4 minutes ago, grayhawk said:

I do understand your point, but as an umpire, I can't choose to ignore a rule when the more knowledgable coach uses it to his advantage.  I am not going to lie and say the player touched when he didn't. It's just not an option.  If the parents want to cause a stink about it, then they need to direct their displeasure towards the coach, not the umpire.

I'm not suggesting any such thing - my opinion was more about how I think the game should be administered at those levels - i'd remove the rule altogether at those levels - much like d3k and IFF's don't exist at the lower levels in many areas.   The rule is the rule and as an umpire you have a job to do with the rules that are in place...I was lamenting the appropriateness of some of the rules at these levels and whether they should be there at all.  Like I said, Childress' mechanic works, if the appeal rule is removed in kind (or somehow modified).

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1 hour ago, beerguy55 said:

I'm not suggesting any such thing - my opinion was more about how I think the game should be administered at those levels - i'd remove the rule altogether at those levels - much like d3k and IFF's don't exist at the lower levels in many areas.   The rule is the rule and as an umpire you have a job to do with the rules that are in place...I was lamenting the appropriateness of some of the rules at these levels and whether they should be there at all.  Like I said, Childress' mechanic works, if the appeal rule is removed in kind (or somehow modified).

I see.  That's above my pay grade.

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