How to award bases

[Guest Willis]

OBR, no outs, R1.  R1 is attempting to steal second when the batter hits to deep left field.  R1, slides safely into second when F7 catches the ball then, and then throws it out of play while R1 is still standing on second.  At this time R1 has made no attempt to return to first to tag up.  Since the base award is two bases from the time of throw and R1 is on second, do you look at him and say, "you are awarded third"?  Or do you say something like "you go to the plate?"  If you tell the runner that you have awarded him home, do you amend that award to third if he returns to tag up at first?

[yawetag]

19 minutes ago, Guest Willis said:

If you tell the runner that you have awarded him home, do you amend that award to third if he returns to tag up at first?

That's the exact steps.

"You - home" If he continues home without returning to first, be ready to call him out on an appeal. If he returns to first, you then point and say "You - third".

[ArchAngel72]

Wouldn't you just tell him "you are awarded 2 bases"  and see what they do from there and be ready for an appeal if he does not return to 1st to tag up?

Let him make the call on what he does.

If you tell him you home and he goes home its because you told him to go home. Then you caused him not to go back to 1st, Least that is how I would argue if I were the at bat coach.

 

[yawetag]

No, you tell runners what base they get. On all awards. You don't have to necessarily say "You - second," but you definitely point at the runner and then point at the base they're awarded. However, saying the base just makes it clearer to everyone.

1 hour ago, ArchAngel72 said:

If you tell him you home and he goes home its because you told him to go home. Then you caused him not to go back to 1st, Least that is how I would argue if I were the at bat coach.

And you would lose that argument. You're awarded two bases from your last touched base, you get two bases from your last touched base. It's your job as a runner to know you need to go back and retouch.

[noumpere]

17 hours ago, ArchAngel72 said:

Wouldn't you just tell him "you are awarded 2 bases"  and see what they do from there and be ready for an appeal if he does not return to 1st to tag up?

Let him make the call on what he does.

If you tell him you home and he goes home its because you told him to go home. Then you caused him not to go back to 1st, Least that is how I would argue if I were the at bat coach.

 

The "approved" mechanic on this has changed over the years -- awarding two bases, awarding from the original base, awarding the number of bases.  Each has their pluses and minuses.  I agree with you that "two bases" is best, but it also is the least used.

[ArchAngel72]

16 hours ago, yawetag said:

No, you tell runners what base they get. On all awards. You don't have to necessarily say "You - second," but you definitely point at the runner and then point at the base they're awarded. However, saying the base just makes it clearer to everyone.

And you would lose that argument. You're awarded two bases from your last touched base, you get two bases from your last touched base. It's your job as a runner to know you need to go back and retouch.

Yep but then by that method you awarded him a base he is not entitled to.

[yawetag]

16 minutes ago, ArchAngel72 said:

Yep but then by that method you awarded him a base he is not entitled to.

He absolutely is entitled to it.

OBR 5.06(b)(4)(G): Each runner including the batter-runner may, without liability to be put out, advance two bases when, with no spectators on the playing field, a thrown ball goes into the stands ... governed by the position of the runners at the time the wild throw was made.

Nothing in the rule states "last legally touched" or anything similar - just 2 bases from their position at the time of the throw.

[Thunderheads]

3 minutes ago, yawetag said:

He absolutely is entitled to it.

OBR 5.06(b)(4)(G): Each runner including the batter-runner may, without liability to be put out, advance two bases when, with no spectators on the playing field, a thrown ball goes into the stands ... governed by the position of the runners at the time the wild throw was made.

Nothing in the rule states "last legally touched" or anything similar - just 2 bases from their position at the time of the throw.

While 100% correct here, ...I think I see where @ArchAngel72 is going here ....

If the runner is on second, ...and you as the umpire knows he must tag up before advancing, ....how can you advance him 2 bases (home), when by rule, he should go back to first, then 3rd.  See what I mean?

[Senor Azul]

Strictly speaking, Mr. yawetag, you are correct. But as in most cases there are opinions to the contrary. Here’s one from Carl Childress that appears in his 2016 BRD (section 464, p. 310): 

Umpire-school mechanics will get an amateur umpire in trouble in some of the lower leagues. In Play 290-464 when the ball is dead and the umpire makes the initial award, he will say:  “You, home!” When the runner does exactly that, and the plate umpire calls him out on appeal—you can surely imagine the hubbub. For lower leagues (NCAA and down—grin), simply say:  “You, third base!” NOW if he doesn’t go back and retouch first, your conscience will be clear when you call him out.

And here is the play that is referenced in the preceding note—

R1. B1 smashes a high fly deep to center field. R1, moving on the pitch, thinks the ball will not be caught. After rounding third, he realizes the ball was caught after all and will be relayed to first for the out. R1 retouches third and is heading for second, but he has not yet retouched that base when the ball goes dead.

So, Mr. noumpere and Mr. ArchAngel72, you are not alone in your opposition to the way we are told to handle this type of play.

[yawetag]

First, Mr. Childress makes it plain that the rules support my position. You should award him home. He's arguing you adjust your actions for lower-level ball.

Second, I disagree with Mr. Childress here. If you award him 3B, you're just inviting the OC to come out and argue that he gets two bases. What do you do then? It's not my job to give either side information they shouldn't already know. If I award him one base, it's tipping BOTH sides that something is wrong. If I award him home, it's giving nothing to either team and it's up to both to realize there's a problem.

Third, I will concede that your award doesn't have to be immediate. Kill the ball when it goes out of play and give R1 a beat or two to see what he does. If he starts to go back to 1B, wait and give the award when he retouches. But if he's just standing on the base or - as most runners will do - starts to advance to 3B, award him home.

[ArchAngel72]

16 minutes ago, yawetag said:

He absolutely is entitled to it.

OBR 5.06(b)(4)(G): Each runner including the batter-runner may, without liability to be put out, advance two bases when, with no spectators on the playing field, a thrown ball goes into the stands ... governed by the position of the runners at the time the wild throw was made.

Nothing in the rule states "last legally touched" or anything similar - just 2 bases from their position at the time of the throw.

Personally to me its the verbage that I think gets us into trouble by an umpire saying "You-Home"  you are telling them to go home and "contributing" to them being possibly appealed out. 

To me thats the flaw. 

 

[Thunderheads]

8 minutes ago, ArchAngel72 said:

Personally to me its the verbage that I think gets us into trouble by an umpire saying "You-Home"  you are telling them to go home and "contributing" to them being possibly appealed out. 

To me thats the flaw. 

 

Here is where I see the OTHER side of this however .........

"You, Home!"  (with a point) is in fact the proper base award mechanic.   Whether you think it's confusing or misleading, ... that is the way it's supposed to be done.

[Richvee]

Then we run into that wonderful FED rule that says the runner cannot legally retouch 1B if he's on or past 2B when the ball goes out of play.  

[Thunderheads]

3 minutes ago, Richvee said:

Then we run into that wonderful FED rule that says the runner cannot legally retouch 1B if he's on or past 2B when the ball goes out of play.  

[yawetag]

20 minutes ago, ArchAngel72 said:

Personally to me its the verbage that I think gets us into trouble by an umpire saying "You-Home"  you are telling them to go home and "contributing" to them being possibly appealed out. 

I'll throw this back at you: You award him 3B. He advances without retouching and OC comes out to question you on why you only awarded one base. What do you tell him?

If you aren't awarding 2 bases from TOT, that will get you into trouble. If OC were to protest the game because you only awarded one base, you can bet "But I'm awarding from the fact he had to retouch" is going to get that protest approved.

[yawetag]

5 minutes ago, Richvee said:

Then we run into that wonderful FED rule that says the runner cannot legally retouch 1B if he's on or past 2B when the ball goes out of play.  

I purposely left any reference to this out. OP mentioned OBR, so I was keeping it simple. 

[noumpere]

I think this was changed (MLBUM) in 2008 or 2009:

 

12. Section 3.11-Award Made From Original Base After Catch- Changes were adopted to agree with the
MLB interpretation - Play 2: Runner on first, one out. Batter flies out to right field/or second
out. However, runner on first thought there were two out and is between second and third when the
ball is caught. Right fielder 's throw to first is wild and goes into dugout. Runner is between
second and third when ball goes out of play. Ruling 2: Runner is awarded home (two bases from his
position at the time of the throw). However, while the ball is dead, he must return to and retouch
first base. Furthermore, since he was between second and third when the ball went out of play, he
must return to first before he reaches and touches third (the next base). If he touches third, he
may not return to first; and if the defensive team appeals, he is out at first. However, if the
runner properly returns and retouches first before reaching third, the
award then becomes third base (two bases from his original base).

 

[Richvee]

6 minutes ago, yawetag said:

I purposely left any reference to this out. OP mentioned OBR, so I was keeping it simple. 

Whenever @lawump has those threads about what should be changed in FED, I always forget to mention this nugget. 

[lawump]

Just now, Richvee said:

Whenever @lawump has those threads about what should be changed in FED, I always forget to mention this nugget. 

I came "this close" (think Maxwell Smart) to getting that rule changed.  Most on the committee agreed that it was kind of silly to have the rule (once I explained it to them).  In fact, our preliminary vote was to do away with this rule.  

However, when we discussed it further, there were several on the committee who felt that if we changed this rule we would have to make a major overhaul to the dead ball appeal rule (which no other rule set has).  So, my proposal to adopt the MLB rule was tabled to allow further investigation as to how the dead ball appeal rule would have to be modified should the MLB rule be adopted.  Of course, now I'm no longer on the committee. 

Just a little history.

[yawetag]

That seems .... easy? Don't allow dead-ball appeals until runners complete any awards. It would allow a runner to correct any retouches prior to any appeal.

That just takes one line in the rule and some case play to emphasize: "Dead-ball appeals should not be made or ruled until all runners have completed any awards."

[Jimurray]

We are neglecting the possibility, depending on the circumstances, that one ump, unaware of a miss or early leaving, could award home. The aware ump would not say anything unless there was an appeal. 

[yawetag]

5 minutes ago, Jimurray said:

We are neglecting the possibility, depending on the circumstances, that one ump, unaware of a miss or early leaving, could award home. The aware ump would not say anything unless there was an appeal. 

Using OP's situation, if any umpire (even in 6-man) wasn't aware this was a retouch situation, I have no faith in him even understanding the nuance of the awarding situation we've discussed, much less that it's two bases from time of throw.

[Jimurray]

8 minutes ago, yawetag said:

Using OP's situation, if any umpire (even in 6-man) wasn't aware this was a retouch situation, I have no faith in him even understanding the nuance of the awarding situation we've discussed, much less that it's two bases from time of throw.

I said depending on the circumstances. Do I have to concoct an OP for you or can you envision a circumstance. We can argue how to award in the OP to avoid conflict but there would be cases where conflict would be unavoidable.

[noumpere]

37 minutes ago, yawetag said:

That seems .... easy? Don't allow dead-ball appeals until runners complete any awards. It would allow a runner to correct any retouches prior to any appeal.

That just takes one line in the rule and some case play to emphasize: "Dead-ball appeals should not be made or ruled until all runners have completed any awards."

This is from 2014:

c. Dead Ball. The dead-ball appeal may be made: 1) Once all runners have completed their advancement and time has been called, a coach or any defensive player, with or without the ball, may make a verbal appeal on a runner missing a base or leaving a base too soon on a caught fly ball. The administering umpire should then make a decision on the play. 2) If the ball has gone out of play, runners must be given the opportunity to complete their base-running responsibilities before the dead-ball appeal can be made.

 

Is it still in the book?

[yawetag]

6 minutes ago, noumpere said:

This is from 2014:

c. Dead Ball. The dead-ball appeal may be made: 1) Once all runners have completed their advancement and time has been called, a coach or any defensive player, with or without the ball, may make a verbal appeal on a runner missing a base or leaving a base too soon on a caught fly ball. The administering umpire should then make a decision on the play. 2) If the ball has gone out of play, runners must be given the opportunity to complete their base-running responsibilities before the dead-ball appeal can be made.

 

Is it still in the book?

It is. So just remove the "can't return" part of the awards rule, rewrite any case plays, and make it an obvious rule change.

[ArchAngel72]

3 hours ago, yawetag said:

I'll throw this back at you: You award him 3B. He advances without retouching and OC comes out to question you on why you only awarded one base. What do you tell him?

If you aren't awarding 2 bases from TOT, that will get you into trouble. If OC were to protest the game because you only awarded one base, you can bet "But I'm awarding from the fact he had to retouch" is going to get that protest approved.

 

This is why at this point I would point to the runner and say  "You 2 bases"  Let them decide where they are supposed to go and how they are supposed to act.  This way I am not pushing him anywhere but what he is awarded and its still up to him to play his path correctly. If I tell him he has home he goes back to 1st and retouches do I then tell him YOU 3rd?

 

I get what the verbage is and thus what is supposed to happen but to me it causes more possible issues after you have said "YOU Home"   because you either give him more bases than he should be allowed based on the retag, or you have to "correct yourself" and reissue the order based on him actually retagging.

 

sigh.. Im sure you see my point.  I'm just saying for this one instance maybe we should change the verbage to not tell a runner "what to do/where to go"

I just see a crap show after he goes home, they appeal and then the at bat manager is protesting because you told him "go home"