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Guest Bill N

Walkoff situations

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Guest Bill N

Got a goofy one.
Runners on 1st and 3rd.  Bottom of 9th  inning, 1 out, score tied.
Batter hits ball to center field, center fielder fields it on a bounce.  He throws to 2nd try to get the force, but runner beats the throw, BUT overruns base and gets tagged out (2nd out).  2nd baseman throws to first getting batter (who is busy celebrating) on force for 3rd out.
Does runner from 3rd score?
Situation 1: tag at 2nd occurred before runner crosses plate.
Situation 2: tag at 2nd occurred AFTER runner crosses the plate.

My take: Situation 1, run does not count.  Pretty straight forward.
Situation 2, run counts.  A bit more tricky.

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I’m going with the run not scoring in both of your scenarios ... we’re headed to extra innings ...

NFHS (2018)

Rule 9 Scoring—Record Keeping

SECTION 1 HOW A TEAM SCORES

ART. 1 . . . A runner scores one run each time he legally advances to and touches first, second, third and then home plate before there are three outs to end the inning.

EXCEPTION: A run is not scored if the runner advances to home plate during action in which the third out is made as follows:

a. by the batter-runner before he touches first base; or

b. by another runner being forced out; or

The rule states “during action in which the third out is made”.  There is no reference to when or how the second out is made.  Now, had they gotten the force at 1B (for the second out) and then made the play at 2B to tag the runner (for the third out), you would have a time play.

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No run scores in any situation when the BR is thrown out before reaching 1st base for the 3rd out. <Not a force out! 

No different than a 6-4-3 DP

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A batter/runner thrown out a first is not a force out.

The third out was made by the batter/runner before reaching first base, no run(s) can score on the play.

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Guest Bill N

Thanks for your clarifications

Let me try a follow on.
Parts of this might be more Scorekeeper than Umpire.
First and 2nd, no outs.
Batter gets base hit, runner from 2nd scores winning run.
Runner from first touches 2nd, batter/runner touches first.
Runner now on 2nd and batter/runner now celebrate with the team, as the game is "over" in their minds.
Fielder tags them.
Do these outs count?

In the case of an appeal of the scoring runner missing 3rd base, and the appeal made after the tag outs, I would think YES.  A successful appeal is the 3rd out.
But in the case of:
Appeal was unsuccessful?  Do those outs still count in the stats?
No appeal is actually made.  Do those outs still count, as there was a potential for appeal, and the play never technically stopped?

So are they still logged as outs for the stats (Pitcher's ERA, etc)?

Presumably on a walkoff hit the umpires must keep watching and remember who was on base, and watch the ball for quite a while in case this situation (especially the appeal) happens.
No-one might leave the field for a while, and the fielder with the ball might slowly approach the celebrating team.
An umpire would have to presumably assume that another umpire might have seen an appeal-able situation. 

I am not an umpire, but a volunteer game photographer, so I see a LOT of interesting situations come up, as I do more games than most umpires.  This situation is hypothetical, however.

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1 hour ago, Guest Bill N said:

Thanks for your clarifications

Let me try a follow on.
Parts of this might be more Scorekeeper than Umpire.
First and 2nd, no outs.
Batter gets base hit, runner from 2nd scores winning run.
Runner from first touches 2nd, batter/runner touches first.

 

Game over.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Guest Bill N said:

No potential appeal?

Yes, there's still a potential appeal, as long as an umpire is on the field and the infielders haven't left fair territory (I think that's right -- it might be all fielders).  The umpires aren't waiting around while " the fielder with the ball might slowly approach the celebrating team "

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Did I misread something again?

I thought I understood:

*R2 scored

*R1 reached 2B safely (base touched)

*BR reached 1B safely (base touched)

 

You have an opportunity to appeal (before the defense and/or umpires leave the field) , but what are you appealing?

 

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OK, maybe it’s because I was reading that as a scenario with a continued “what if” .... ?  Or maybe my reading comprehension is just in the crapper the last few days.  

The runners would not be out on tag attempts, because the game is considered over at that point.  The defense could appeal the runner missing third. If it is a successful appeal, I have a tie game with one out and runners on first and second.

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On ‎9‎/‎8‎/‎2019 at 9:21 PM, Guest Bill N said:

Thanks for your clarifications

Let me try a follow on.
Parts of this might be more Scorekeeper than Umpire.
First and 2nd, no outs.
Batter gets base hit, runner from 2nd scores winning run.
Runner from first touches 2nd, batter/runner touches first.
Runner now on 2nd and batter/runner now celebrate with the team, as the game is "over" in their minds.
Fielder tags them.
Do these outs count?

 

In the case of an appeal of the scoring runner missing 3rd base, and the appeal made after the tag outs, I would think YES.  A successful appeal is the 3rd out.
But in the case of:
Appeal was unsuccessful?  Do those outs still count in the stats?
No appeal is actually made.  Do those outs still count, as there was a potential for appeal, and the play never technically stopped?

So are they still logged as outs for the stats (Pitcher's ERA, etc)?

Presumably on a walkoff hit the umpires must keep watching and remember who was on base, and watch the ball for quite a while in case this situation (especially the appeal) happens.
No-one might leave the field for a while, and the fielder with the ball might slowly approach the celebrating team.
An umpire would have to presumably assume that another umpire might have seen an appeal-able situation. 

I am not an umpire, but a volunteer game photographer, so I see a LOT of interesting situations come up, as I do more games than most umpires.  This situation is hypothetical, however.

1) The game is over as soon as the winning run scores in this situation... No the outs don't count. Even after an appeal of R2 missing 3rd because the game was over the moment R2 touched the plate and BR touched first. 

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2 hours ago, JSam21 said:

1) The game is over as soon as the winning run scores in this situation... No the outs don't count. Even after an appeal of R2 missing 3rd because the game was over the moment R2 touched the plate and BR touched first. 

The appeal of the missed base (if successful) would count as an out and erase the run scored.

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4 minutes ago, The Man in Blue said:

The appeal of the missed base (if successful) would count as an out and erase the run scored.

Yep... but none of the other "outs" would because the game was "over" at that time. 

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2 hours ago, JSam21 said:

1) The game is over as soon as the winning run scores in this situation... No the outs don't count. Even after an appeal of R2 missing 3rd because the game was over the moment R2 touched the plate and BR touched first. 

What does the BR touching 1B do? 

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6 hours ago, JSam21 said:

Yep... but none of the other "outs" would because the game was "over" at that time. 

 

Just wanted to make sure that didn’t get confused.  :cheers:

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6 hours ago, Jimurray said:

What does the BR touching 1B do? 

Well ... it’s a technicality.  If he didn’t touch first and “abandoned”, they could appeal that as well.  At best, it would still only be two outs and a runner on second though (if the appeal at third was successful as well).

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Guest Bill N

Thanks for the answer.

But it causes me to have one more question:

1 out, runners on 1st and 2nd.

Batter hits the ball all the way to the fence.

Runner from 2nd scores, but he missed 3rd base.  Runner from 1st base also scores, right after the other.

If there is no appeal, the only the first run counts.

But if there IS a successful appeal, first runner is out for the 2nd out and his run does not count, but would the other run count and end the game?
OR would he have to back to 3rd base as he scored "after the game was over".

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15 hours ago, Guest Bill N said:

Thanks for the answer.

But it causes me to have one more question:

1 out, runners on 1st and 2nd.

Batter hits the ball all the way to the fence.

Runner from 2nd scores, but he missed 3rd base.  Runner from 1st base also scores, right after the other.

If there is no appeal, the only the first run counts.

But if there IS a successful appeal, first runner is out for the 2nd out and his run does not count, but would the other run count and end the game?
OR would he have to back to 3rd base as he scored "after the game was over".

If there is no appeal, both runs score.  If appealed and upheld, 1 run scores. If 2 outs, no runs score.  

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Guest Bill N
8 hours ago, Tborze said:

If there is no appeal, both runs score.  If appealed and upheld, 1 run scores. If 2 outs, no runs score.  

I would disagree on the red above.  Only the first run would count, unless the batter hit a home run out of the playing field.  Assumption was that score was tied at the start of the play (I noticed I didn't specifically say that).

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16 hours ago, Guest Bill N said:

I would disagree on the red above.  Only the first run would count, unless the batter hit a home run out of the playing field.  Assumption was that score was tied at the start of the play (I noticed I didn't specifically say that).

That, was kind of important to the situation, don't ya think:question1:

I see now you were following up with your first question.  

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