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Guest Regina Ray

Force or not?

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Guest Regina Ray

Runner on first, one out.  Runner stealing second, batter flies out to left, runner keeps running towards third.  Left fielder throws to second base, prior to the runner re-tagging second.  Is it a force play at second, even though the runner’s home-base was first base?

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First of all... this isn’t a force play it is a live ball appeal.

Secondly... the appeal would need to be at first base since that was the base they occupied at the time of pitch 

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EDITED TO ADD: DISREGARD THIS WHOLE POST ... I’M GOING TO CLAIM I WAS IN A PRE-COFFEE HAZE ... but leaving as proof of my ability to misread and spew nonsense with the best of them.  :smachhead:

I think she is asking if you could consider the play at second base a force out (not an appeal) since the runner missed second base.

Generally the runner is considered to have beaten a throw for a force out if the runner has passed the bag, regardless of whether the runner touched the bag or not.  At that point, the defense could appeal the missed bag for the out (not a force out).  

So in the scenario presented, no ... once the runner rounded second and headed to third the force out is removed.  The defense now has two options for the out though ... an appeal for failing to retag and leaving first early OR, an appeal for missing second base.

Having said that, an umpire could (should?) consider a throw to second base and touching of the bag an appeal for missing the base instead of an attempt on the force.

I’ll have to do some research for citations on this.  I think most of it comes down to umpiring mechanics rather than rule interpretations though.

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27 minutes ago, The Man in Blue said:

I think she is asking if you could consider the play at second base a force out (not an appeal) since the runner missed second base.

Generally the runner is considered to have beaten a throw for a force out if the runner has passed the bag, regardless of whether the runner touched the bag or not.  At that point, the defense could appeal the missed bag for the out (not a force out).  

So in the scenario presented, no ... once the runner rounded second and headed to third the force out is removed.  The defense now has two options for the out though ... an appeal for failing to retag and leaving first early OR, an appeal for missing second base.

Having said that, an umpire could (should?) consider a throw to second base and touching of the bag an appeal for missing the base instead of an attempt on the force.

I’ll have to do some research for citations on this.  I think most of it comes down to umpiring mechanics rather than rule interpretations though.

How can this be any type of force out (or attempt at one) when the batter flies out?  And, no where did the OP mention missing second base.

This question (can an appeal be made at other than the base-left-too-soon?) gets asked a few times a year -- even if the poster uses "fan" language instead of "umpire" language.  No need to confuse it any further.

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Guest Regina Ray

I'm sorry about my confusing description of the play, let me try again as this was not an appeal play, nor the runner missing a base.

There was a runner on first with less than two out.

The batter hit the ball to the outfield and the fielder caught the fly ball.

On the play, the runner (who was originally on first) did not tag up (as they were attempting to steal), they not only ran to second base but kept running and were on their way to third.  When they recognized that it was a fly ball and that they had not tagged up, they were doing what they were supposed to, running back to touch second base, on their way back to first base.  However, prior to them reaching (re-tagging) second base on their way back to first, the outfielder had thrown the ball to the second baseman (who was touching second base, as if it were a force play).  As the play continued, the runner made it back to first base (apparently safely).  The question is, was the player out at second?

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5 hours ago, noumpere said:

How can this be any type of force out (or attempt at one) when the batter flies out?  And, no where did the OP mention missing second base.

This question (can an appeal be made at other than the base-left-too-soon?) gets asked a few times a year -- even if the poster uses "fan" language instead of "umpire" language.  No need to confuse it any further.

Lesson number one in the morning ... DRINK YOUR COFFEE first ... I’m guessing I still had the other question about the tag/force to end the game stuck in my head ... yeah, I don’t know ... shameful disclaimer added to the original post.

200.gif

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49 minutes ago, Guest Regina Ray said:

I'm sorry about my confusing description of the play, let me try again as this was not an appeal play, nor the runner missing a base.

There was a runner on first with less than two out.

The batter hit the ball to the outfield and the fielder caught the fly ball.

On the play, the runner (who was originally on first) did not tag up (as they were attempting to steal), they not only ran to second base but kept running and were on their way to third.  When they recognized that it was a fly ball and that they had not tagged up, they were doing what they were supposed to, running back to touch second base, on their way back to first base.  However, prior to them reaching (re-tagging) second base on their way back to first, the outfielder had thrown the ball to the second baseman (who was touching second base, as if it were a force play).  As the play continued, the runner made it back to first base (apparently safely).  The question is, was the player out at second?

 

No.  The runner is not out at second.  Keep it simple stupid (me); no more explanation needed.  Right noumpere?  :cheers:

My apologies Regina.  Your post was pretty clear, it was my head that wasn’t.

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1 hour ago, Guest Regina Ray said:

I'm sorry about my confusing description of the play, let me try again as this was not an appeal play, nor the runner missing a base.

There was a runner on first with less than two out.

The batter hit the ball to the outfield and the fielder caught the fly ball.

On the play, the runner (who was originally on first) did not tag up (as they were attempting to steal), they not only ran to second base but kept running and were on their way to third.  When they recognized that it was a fly ball and that they had not tagged up, they were doing what they were supposed to, running back to touch second base, on their way back to first base.  However, prior to them reaching (re-tagging) second base on their way back to first, the outfielder had thrown the ball to the second baseman (who was touching second base, as if it were a force play).  As the play continued, the runner made it back to first base (apparently safely).  The question is, was the player out at second?

First, yes, it was an appeal play.

Second, no, the runner is not out for the appeal at second.  Either the runner must be tagged, or the base-left-too-soon (or the base missed) must be tagged to make a valid appeal.

Third, no, it's not a force out. ;)

 

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Can I confuse this even more.

 

If they appealed to 2nd the runner on 3rd is safe ( Still at this point)

If they threw a pitch to the next batter and then realized the error that they should have appealed to 1st and THEN appealed the runner on 3rd is now still safe at 3rd correct?

They would have to either tag the runner on 3rd or appeal it to 1st base prior to another pitch being made in order to get the runner on 3rd out.

I have a few questions.

 

If the defense or the offense asked for time while this is going on would you grant it?

If time was asked for (and granted ) and then the runner realized their error retreated to 1st via touching 2nd can the field team tag him/her out during time? ( my feelings are no but I would not grant time) 

Sorry for the tangent this ones fascinating me for some reason, What actually was the call on the field at the time, what happened to the runner?

 

 

 

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16 hours ago, Guest Regina Ray said:

I'm sorry about my confusing description of the play, let me try again as this was not an appeal play, nor the runner missing a base.

There was a runner on first with less than two out.

The batter hit the ball to the outfield and the fielder caught the fly ball.

On the play, the runner (who was originally on first) did not tag up (as they were attempting to steal), they not only ran to second base but kept running and were on their way to third.  When they recognized that it was a fly ball and that they had not tagged up, they were doing what they were supposed to, running back to touch second base, on their way back to first base.  However, prior to them reaching (re-tagging) second base on their way back to first, the outfielder had thrown the ball to the second baseman (who was touching second base, as if it were a force play).  As the play continued, the runner made it back to first base (apparently safely).  The question is, was the player out at second?

Ok what happened to the runner has been cleared up to me.

I agree with him being safe at 1st so long as they

1.retouched 2nd on the way back to 1st

2. no one ever tagged them during the base running

3. the ball was never thrown to 1st base and a "tag" ( inadvertently or not ) was applied to the base before the runner got there.

 

 

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5 minutes ago, ArchAngel72 said:

Can I confuse this even more.

 

If they appealed to 2nd the runner on 3rd is safe ( Still at this point)

If they threw a pitch to the next batter and then realized the error that they should have appealed to 1st and THEN appealed the runner on 3rd is now still safe at 3rd correct?

They would have to either tag the runner on 3rd or appeal it to 1st base prior to another pitch being made in order to get the runner on 3rd out.

I have a few questions.

 

If the defense or the offense asked for time while this is going on would you grant it?

If time was asked for (and granted ) and then the runner realized their error retreated to 1st via touching 2nd can the field team tag him/her out during time? ( my feelings are no but I would not grant time) 

Sorry for the tangent this ones fascinating me for some reason, What actually was the call on the field at the time, what happened to the runner?

 

 

 

If an appeal is "in process" (and for this I am including hearing such things as "throw it to first - he left early), then I am not granting time.  If I do grant time, however, no bases can be run and no runner can be put out (except for a verbal appeal in FED).  When the ball is put back in play, the runner will still be at thrid, and the defense can still make an appeal.  The runner cannot return to first.

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Just now, noumpere said:

If an appeal is "in process" (and for this I am including hearing such things as "throw it to first - he left early), then I am not granting time.  If I do grant time, however, no bases can be run and no runner can be put out (except for a verbal appeal in FED).  When the ball is put back in play, the runner will still be at thrid, and the defense can still make an appeal.  The runner cannot return to first.

 

Ok thank you,  So base runners have to return to the base they were on prior to time being called.  /facepalm  yeah I just brainfarted that one 

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1 hour ago, noumpere said:

If an appeal is "in process" (and for this I am including hearing such things as "throw it to first - he left early), then I am not granting time.  If I do grant time, however, no bases can be run and no runner can be put out (except for a verbal appeal in FED).  When the ball is put back in play, the runner will still be at thrid, and the defense can still make an appeal.  The runner cannot return to first.

You sure?

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8 minutes ago, Rich Ives said:

You sure?

Yes (unless something has changed).  F1 has to have the ball on the rubber to make the ball live again, and once that happens, a runner can't return / run the bases in reverse.

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45 minutes ago, noumpere said:

Yes (unless something has changed).  F1 has to have the ball on the rubber to make the ball live again, and once that happens, a runner can't return / run the bases in reverse.

Having the pitcher on the rubber with the ball doesn't stop baserunners.

't stop I'd argue that there is a play in progress and the rubber isn't a stop button. 

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8 minutes ago, Rich Ives said:

Having the pitcher on the rubber with the ball doesn't stop baserunners.

't stop I'd argue that there is a play in progress and the rubber isn't a stop button. 

The umpire calling TIME was the stop button, which happened before the pitcher was on the rubber.

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What are you signaling, or are you signaling anything, when the F4/F6 touches second? Seems like not saying anything could be really confusing, but I think signaling safe could be a lot worse.

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If time is out, signal nothing.  Depending on the level, tell them the ball must be in play to make an appeal.

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1 hour ago, Biscuit said:

What are you signaling, or are you signaling anything, when the F4/F6 touches second? Seems like not saying anything could be really confusing, but I think signaling safe could be a lot worse.

Ask the team what is is appealing.  If they are appealing a miss of second (for example), signal and say "safe."  If they are appealing leaving first early, say "that's not a valid appeal."

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On 9/9/2019 at 12:19 PM, Mussgrass said:

The umpire calling TIME was the stop button, which happened before the pitcher was on the rubber.

And when the ball is put back in play the rubber is not a stop button.

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1 hour ago, Rich Ives said:

And when the ball is put back in play the rubber is not a stop button.

But it is a "do not reverse" button.

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