Calling "time!" all the time!

[dumbdumb]

So what is everyone doing when that Jack wagon coach that kyl ehuston had, (intentionally, on purpose) tells everyone to slowly jog to the pitcher with the ball every time the umpire does not give time out when requested, which is every play all game?????

He coaches  this during practice but does not say one word about intentionally doing this during a real game. The players know to do this automatically, just like being told in practice to drill a player that hit a previous home run in a regular game.

[The Man in Blue]

Well, if you wanted to get drastic ... (under NFHS)

Rule 4 Starting and Ending Game

SECTION 4 FORFEITED GAME

ART. 1 . . . A game shall be forfeited to the offended team by the umpire when a team:

a. is late in appearing or in beginning play after the umpire calls “Play.” State associations are authorized to specify the time frame and/ or circumstance before a forfeit will be declared for a late arrival by one of the teams; or

b. refuses to continue play after the game has started; or

c. delays more than a reasonable amount of time in resuming play, or in not obeying the umpire’s order to remove a player for violation of the rules; or

d. persists in tactics designed to delay or shorten the game; or

e. willfully and persistently violates any of the rules after being warned by the umpire; or

f. is unable to provide at least nine players to start the game or cannot provide eight players to finish the game; or

NOTES: 1. An out will be called each time that spot in the batting order comes to bat. If the offensive player must be substituted for after reaching base, the most recent batter not on base is allowed to run for that player.

2. A team playing with fewer than nine players may return to nine players.

g. on its home field, fails to comply with the umpire’s order to put the field in condition for play.

[dumbdumb]

6 hours ago, The Man in Blue said:

Well, if you wanted to get drastic ... (under NFHS)

Rule 4 Starting and Ending Game

SECTION 4 FORFEITED GAME

ART. 1 . . . A game shall be forfeited to the offended team by the umpire when a team:

a. is late in appearing or in beginning play after the umpire calls “Play.” State associations are authorized to specify the time frame and/ or circumstance before a forfeit will be declared for a late arrival by one of the teams; or

b. refuses to continue play after the game has started; or

c. delays more than a reasonable amount of time in resuming play, or in not obeying the umpire’s order to remove a player for violation of the rules; or

d. persists in tactics designed to delay or shorten the game; or

e. willfully and persistently violates any of the rules after being warned by the umpire; or

f. is unable to provide at least nine players to start the game or cannot provide eight players to finish the game; or

NOTES: 1. An out will be called each time that spot in the batting order comes to bat. If the offensive player must be substituted for after reaching base, the most recent batter not on base is allowed to run for that player.

2. A team playing with fewer than nine players may return to nine players.

g. on its home field, fails to comply with the umpire’s order to put the field in condition for play.

so, you personally (i cannot tell) are going to let this go on all game????? So the coach wins and laughs all the way home.

if not, how are you going to handle, c d e with the coach who is intentionally having this strategy employed because he wants you to call time, all the time.

let's here what you say to the coach about this intentional strategy being deployed before the forfeit.

[The Man in Blue]

First, it would depend on what rule set the game is being played under.  I cannot attest to recourse under any rule set other than NFHS.

Second, no, I’m not allowing it to go on.  I said it was drastic, I didn’t say I wouldn’t do it.

F4: Time?

Me: [If no good reason, shake my head no.]

F4 walks ball to pitcher.

Me:  We need to keep the game moving, throw it in next time.

Next play

F6: Time?

Me: [If no good reason, shake my head no.]

F6 walks ball to pitcher.

Me:  We need to keep the game moving, throw it in next time.

Next play

F6: Time?

Me: TIME!  Coach?  [motions for coach to come out, meets him half way]. Coach, we aren’t calling time for your kids to throw the ball to the pitcher.  We also aren’t walking in and wasting time.  Two of you players have been told.  Now I’m issuing you a warning.  If we can’t get the ball back to the pitcher in a timely manner, my only recourse is to forfeit the game on the next occurrence of delaying the game.

[Biscuit]

6 minutes ago, The Man in Blue said:

First, it would depend on what rule set the game is being played under.  I cannot attest to recourse under any rule set other than NFHS.

Second, no, I’m not allowing it to go on.  I said it was drastic, I didn’t say I wouldn’t do it.

F4: Time?

Me: [If no good reason, shake my head no.]

F4 walks ball to pitcher.

Me:  We need to keep the game moving, throw it in next time.

Next play

F6: Time?

Me: [If no good reason, shake my head no.]

F6 walks ball to pitcher.

Me:  We need to keep the game moving, throw it in next time.

Next play

F6: Time?

Me: TIME!  Coach?  [motions for coach to come out, meets him half way]. Coach, we aren’t calling time for your kids to throw the ball to the pitcher.  We also aren’t walking in and wasting time.  Two of you players have been told.  Now I’m issuing you a warning.  If we can’t get the ball back to the pitcher in a timely manner, my only recourse is to forfeit the game on the next occurrence of delaying the game.

Could you eject instead of forfeit? Not sure, but it feels like you could

[The Man in Blue]

You sure could.  The penalty under rule is a forfeit and I would hope the warning and threat would be enough, but I’m ok with not going nuclear.  

 

So so instead of saying “my only recourse” I suppose “by rule the penalty is” ... which is a much better to have that conversation anyway.

[Umpire in Chief]

You've got to find the balance of what keeps the game moving, it may not be easy and there may be some trial and error and it will also depend on each individual game and how the coaches do and learn to keep the game moving.  

I've actually pleaded with coaches before "I'll work with you, but you have to work with me in keeping this game moving." 

And what really gets me is many times at these age groups where this is a problem they have a time limit of some sort. Either no new inning after _______ amount of time or drop dead at _________ amount of time. It kills me that they do things to slow the game and reduce their playing time, then complain. I use to be of the mindset, let them waste all the time they want it's their game if they only want to play 3 innings, then thats what they get. But now in the big picture, I'd prefer to keep things moving it helps set the standard that the pace needs to be kept up. Next thing you know they're high schoolers with these bad habits. 

[kylehutson]

14 hours ago, The Man in Blue said:

Well, if you wanted to get drastic ... (under NFHS)

Rule 4 Starting and Ending Game

SECTION 4 FORFEITED GAME

ART. 1 . . . A game shall be forfeited to the offended team by the umpire when a team:

a. is late in appearing or in beginning play after the umpire calls “Play.” State associations are authorized to specify the time frame and/ or circumstance before a forfeit will be declared for a late arrival by one of the teams; or

b. refuses to continue play after the game has started; or

c. delays more than a reasonable amount of time in resuming play, or in not obeying the umpire’s order to remove a player for violation of the rules; or

d. persists in tactics designed to delay or shorten the game; or

e. willfully and persistently violates any of the rules after being warned by the umpire; or

I've talked with the coach in question about it (I knew him before I ever started umpiring). They don't saunder back to the pitcher - it's a brisk jog. I don't think any of these apply. For them it's not wanting to risk a bad throw or catch vs the time it takes. I can't fault his logic (even if it is infuriating, and might only come into play 1 in 1000 times ... or less).

If the umpire does grant time, great - they'll throw it in.

If not - they get it back as fast as they can without risking a bad transfer.

[Lou B]

The ump's job is not to help the defense (not the offense for that matter). If the players can't throw the ball back to the pitcher the manager/coaches need to work on it with them during practice.

As for walking it back to the pitcher, I'm warning them (and the manager) to not do it again.  If they do, they are violating the directions of an umpire, ejection time.

[yawetag]

50 minutes ago, Lou B said:

As for walking it back to the pitcher, I'm warning them (and the manager) to not do it again.  If they do, they are violating the directions of an umpire, ejection time.

Um. What?

[Lou B]

Example: from the movie Major League (or Major League II).

The catcher catches the ball and instead of throwing it back to the pitcher he throws it to F5 who then throws it to the pitcher.  How many times are you going to let him do that before you give him a warning to not do that again?  What are you going to do if he ignores your "warning" and does it again?

[The Man in Blue]

6 hours ago, yawetag said:

Um. What?

[yawetag]

15 hours ago, Lou B said:

Example: from the movie Major League (or Major League II).

The catcher catches the ball and instead of throwing it back to the pitcher he throws it to F5 who then throws it to the pitcher.  How many times are you going to let him do that before you give him a warning to not do that again?  What are you going to do if he ignores your "warning" and does it again?

Unless there's a significant delay, I'm not saying anything.

[Vegas_Ump]

14 hours ago, The Man in Blue said:

He's Safe!

Looks like a Harrier whose lift system failed, so he had to try a conventional landing.  And if the nozzle wheel chain locked, that's why he's having control problem!

Glad he ejected when he did.  (That's called a Righteous Ejection with no one game suspension!)

Mike

[ArchAngel72]

Heh 

 

So fall ball on Saturday.  12U season rules but some changes to the rules, no more than 2 innings per pitcher, and they also adopt a 5 run per inning rule.

3rd inning R3 pitcher throws a wild pitch I move out to the 1st base side as it was to my left. R3 is slidding in safe at home before pitcher gets the ball from the catcher.  I ask batter to step out as he has resumed his position call time, clean plate I walk around the back of the righty batter Im putting my mask on he steps in before I can say step out please and get behind the catcher the pitcher throws a pitch.  ( ARRRRRG)  as I step away waving arms saying No pitch no pitch the batter tags it for a gapper left center and gets a double.

Balls in the air Im going TIME TIME ball is dead everyone stop please.

 

The Home team whose batter it is coach is like "awe really your gonna take that double away from him"  I turned,  looked at him said yep sorry I have to ball was never put back into play.  he's kinda giggling so I know hes not serious and this is fall ball we are all there for "instructional purposes and having fun"

sigh yep two pitches later the kid was walked and then stole 2nd SO he got his double.. 

I need to work on keeping the kids out of the box until I am ready.. these kids get so anxious they just wanna keep peppering them right in there too quick. ( Dont see that in the majors do yah LOL)

 

[basejester]

I'm stingy with time-outs.  It doesn't have anything to do with keeping the game going.  It's to be fair.  

 

[The Man in Blue]

Softball double-header ... a few years ago and I am working with a 20 year veteran.  I’m probably 5 years or so in at that point.

First game I am on the plate; he has the second game.   While we are changing out between games, I ask him if he has anything for me.  I get the usual “No, no, you did fine.”  Then he thinks a second.  “Wait, I have a question.  Why do you call “Time” every time you come out to sweep off home plate?”

I didn’t have a good answer.

His game behind the plate ... R1 and R3, wild pitch.  R3 scores, R1 moves to second base.  Pitcher walks back to the circle.  My partner waits for her to get there and then comes around to sweep the plate.  The pitcher walks to the back of the circle and sets her glove and the ball down so she can adjust her hair tie.  The runner on second busts for third and I just smile ...

Of course, the defense HC wants her called out.  I explain, “Coach, the ball was live, the pitcher no longer had control of the ball.”

Coach: ”But, he was brushing off the plate!”

Me: ”Yes he was.”

Coach: “Time was called!”

Me: “Who called it?”

Coach: “He did!”

I motion for my partner and meet him half way.  “John, did you call time?”

PU: “Well.  I guess I didn’t.”  (Sheepish grins start to form on both of us umpires)

Me: “You know that question you asked me last game?  I guess this is why.”

 

[basejester]

Cleaning the plate with the ball live is dipping the stick in the SH*# and picking it up by the wrong end.

 

[Aging_Arbiter]

8 hours ago, basejester said:

Cleaning the plate with the ball live is dipping the stick in the SH*# and picking it up by the wrong end.

 

While I understand both theories on time/no time while cleaning the plate, We will just have to agree to disagree.  It takes all of....what?....3 seconds to clean the plate?  There's two of you on the field.  I'm sure your partner can cover it alone for 3 seconds.  Conversely, if you are working solo, and need to turn your back to the field to clean the plate, I agree with calling time.

[The Man in Blue]

31 minutes ago, Aging_Arbiter said:

While I understand both theories on time/no time while cleaning the plate, We will just have to agree to disagree.  It takes all of....what?....3 seconds to clean the plate?  There's two of you on the field.  I'm sure your partner can cover it alone for 3 seconds.  Conversely, if you are working solo, and need to turn your back to the field to clean the plate, I agree with calling time.

There is a reason my story was specific to softball.  It isn’t as applicable to baseball since runners can be off the base while the pitcher has the ball on the mound (at most levels).

That said, I developed a habit and I follow it in baseball.  Why?  Well, I don’t always know/trust my partner.  But mainly, I just feel as if you should have eyes on a live ball (or related play) at all times.  If I am taking my eyes off for an administrative task, I’m killing it.  This is just my opinion, but it is a bad look to have a play break open while you are doodling around with your brush or lineup card.  I also don’t want to be run over by an overly astute base runner or thumped in the ass with the ball while I am out of position and not looking.

[ArchAngel72]

Um  if you do not call time to clean the plate and you are working solo how are you to judge ANY play that happens while your facing the ground mask in one hand brush in the other.

 

[yawetag]

 

[Replacematt]

9 hours ago, basejester said:

Cleaning the plate with the ball live is dipping the stick in the SH*# and picking it up by the wrong end.

 

No, it's not.

[The Man in Blue]

1 hour ago, yawetag said:

 

OK, now I’m wondering if we should move this conversation over there ... 

After reading it, I feel compelled to clarify:

I am not calling time in the middle of an at bat to clean the plate.  I’ve seen guys do this, drives me batty.

I clean the plate when there is a “natural pause” and it needs it, when it must be done (i.e., slide at the plate), or the batter or catcher gets hit with a good shot.  Even with any “natural pause in the game”, I’m calling time if we were in play (obviously not between innings or hit by pitch).

Oh ... I can think of one more time I will do it unnecessarily ... after a play and my partner needs to get across the field to get into/back into position. This was something I was taught as a courtesy to my partner.  That way it doesn’t seem as if the game is being held up because of us slow, fat, and old guys.  It helps dispel the impression that we are slow, fat, old guys who might not make it into position for a call.  Call it “professional cover”.  

[Aging_Arbiter]

3 hours ago, ArchAngel72 said:

Um  if you do not call time to clean the plate and you are working solo how are you to judge ANY play that happens while your facing the ground mask in one hand brush in the other.

 

 

4 hours ago, Aging_Arbiter said:

Conversely, if you are working solo, and need to turn your back to the field to clean the plate, I agree with calling time.