INFIELD FLY and INTERFERENCE

[Guest mrumpiresir]

Is the batter immediately out on an infield fly, making this interference by a retired runner, or is the batter not out until the batted ball is determined to be fair?  

Would you get two outs on this play or only one because of the interference?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TfF0BL2SSC8&lc=z232el0hvonbvhvl2acdp432molxflngvjmwpgax3r1w03c010c.1566059262369918

[johnnyg08]

1 minute ago, BigVic69 said:

In that case, the batter-runner is out IF the ball remains fair.

If the ball goes foul then it is foul and all runners and the batter return to original positions.

Right?

So the onky question is, was the ball judged to be fair or foul.

Right? Little league rules.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk
 

What about the Interference? We're not debating the judgment of interference or no interference. There would be no reason for a multiple page thread. 

[beerguy55]

26 minutes ago, johnnyg08 said:

Fair enough, but we're not debating interference or not. We're working through proper enforcement of when is the exact moment the batter out on IFF?

That is the why we're here. 

Theoretically, the batter is out immediately when IFF is called, pending a possible reprieve if the ball ends up foul.

If I'm right, this would be retired runner interference (retroactive) if the ball ends up fair.   Ball is dead the moment interference is called (whether retired runner or not).

The only determination would be whether or not the retired runner interference prevented the fielder from making a play on another runner.    

I think you could very loosely interpret this as a "yes".   There are three runners on base -  the fielder MAY/MIGHT intend to make a play on one of  them.  Whether the fielder wants to make a catch and make a snap throw to a runner who is a step (or maybe much more - we don't really see any of the runners) off base....or wants to let the ball bounce and goad the runners into advancing.  There is a play on another runner to be made - the interference prevented any notion of that opportunity, regardless of any likely outcome, or what the fielder actually intended.

It does look like I'm trying to justify my desire to get two outs here - and you wouldn't be wrong to think that.  Is that the crappy end of the stick - maybe...probably.

But I have two lines of thought that drive me to that - the first is the one I highlighted before about the no lose scenario for the offense ..batter is already out and can't be called out twice. (though your response to it was perfect)

The second is around the whole notion of a retired runner continuing to advance the bases "properly", and when it's reasonable.  The moment IFF is called the B/R has zero reason to continue advancing...none.   They are either out, or the ball is foul.  I want to give that B/R very little benefit of the doubt if they continue running and interfere with a play.

And talking about foul balls - if the ball ends up foul, then it would be (batter)runner interference and the B/R would be out as a result of her interference - runners return.  I only go for one out here because the out happens as a result of the interference - there are no outs on the play at the time of the interference.  The whole risk/reward dynamic changes my perspective if it's foul.

 

On a side note:

A runner is safe until something makes him out

A pitch is a ball until something makes it a strike

Is a batted ball fair until something makes it foul?  Or is it truly neither until something makes it one or the other?   As an example - if you see a drive down the outfield line, but you fail to see it land (F3 in your way and you're solo), you just know it landed somewhere from six inches fair to six inches foul, is it fair because you didn't see it land foul?  Or are you flipping a coin in your head?   Is there official guidance on that scenario?

[Rich Ives]

1 hour ago, BigVic69 said:

In that case, the batter-runner is out IF the ball remains fair.

If the ball goes foul then it is foul and all runners and the batter return to original positions.

Right?

So the onky question is, was the ball judged to be fair or foul.

Right? Little league rules.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk
 

High school game, not LL.

[johnnyg08]

A batted ball is neither fair nor foul until the conditions of each are met. 

 

 

 

 

[johnnyg08]

48 minutes ago, beerguy55 said:

 Is there official guidance on that scenario?

No. Sometimes we just have to umpire. 

 

[grayhawk]

The question of precisely when the BR is out on the IFF if fair + interference scenario is largely academic.  Think of the possibilities:

1.  The BR is out when IFF is declared (assuming the ball becomes fair).  This makes it interference by a retired runner.  BR is out.  We can get a second out if the defense could have played on another runner.

2.  The BR's status is unknown until the ball becomes fair or foul.  This is BR interference, the BR is out for interference, and if the interference prevented a double play, then the runner the defense would have played on is out, and if that cannot be determined (because they could have played on multiple runners), then the runner closest to home is out.

In both scenarios, the BR is out.  In both scenarios, we get a second out if and only if we judge the defense could have gotten another out if not for the interference.

[johnnyg08]

12 minutes ago, grayhawk said:

2.  The BR's status is unknown until the ball becomes fair or foul.  This is BR interference, the BR is out for interference, and if the interference prevented a double play, then the runner the defense would have played on is out, and if that cannot be determined (because they could have played on multiple runners), then the runner closest to home is out.

In both scenarios, the BR is out.  In both scenarios, we get a second out if and only if we judge the defense could have gotten another out if not for the interference.

I like #2. It feels more consistent with other baseball plays. 

Also remember that on runner interference, the ball is dead at the time of the interference. There is the rare exception where the ball remains live only to determine if the batted ball is fair or not, but the ball is dead immediately at that point. Again, in reference to the video below. The play the that inspired the rule change involves a batter/runner and interference by another runner who is not the batter/runner.

Rule change inspired by this play:

See this article:
https://bleacherreport.com/articles/1536094-mlb-modifies-infield-fly-rule-in-wake-of-confusing-play-during-2012-season

See OBR "Definition of Terms - Infield Fly": 

[grayhawk]

5 minutes ago, johnnyg08 said:

I like #2. It feels more consistent with other baseball plays. 

Also remember that on runner interference, the ball is dead at the time of the interference. There is the rare exception where the ball remains live only to determine if the batted ball is fair or not, but the ball is dead immediately at that point. Again, in reference to the video below. The play the that inspired the rule change involves a batter/runner and interference by another runner who is not the batter/runner.

Rule change inspired by this play:

See this article:
https://bleacherreport.com/articles/1536094-mlb-modifies-infield-fly-rule-in-wake-of-confusing-play-during-2012-season

See OBR "Definition of Terms - Infield Fly": 

I am very familiar with that play and the resulting rules instruction.  My point was that on BR interference during an IFF, it doesn't really matter - the result is the same.  However, your preference is probably the best option. We keep the play live when another runner interferes on a pop up for the sole purpose of determining what to do with the BR ((1) Fair IFF - out.  (2) Foul IFF or non-IFF - back to bat or (3) Non-IFF fair ball - award first base). It doesn't matter if the ball is fair or foul when the BR interferes - he is out regardless so there is no reason at all to wait to kill the play.

[johnnyg08]

1 minute ago, grayhawk said:

BR interferes - he is out regardless so there is no reason at all to wait to kill the play.

Exactly

[The Man in Blue]

On 8/19/2019 at 3:02 PM, johnnyg08 said:

It's actually Rule 8-2-7 dealing with the batter-runner:

The batter-runner shall be called out when: ART. 7 . . . The batter-runner interferes with a fielder attempting to make an initial play, interferes with a fielder attempting to throw the ball, intentionally interferes with a thrown ball while out of the batter's box, makes contact with a fair batted ball before reaching first base, or (F.P.) interferes with a dropped third strike. If this interference, in the umpire's judgment, is an obvious attempt to prevent a double play, the runner closest to home plate shall be called out. A batter runner being hit with a thrown ball does not necessarily constitute interference.

Rule 2-30 Infield Fly: "Infield fly rule is, when declared by the umpire, a fair fly..." When the ball is airborne, it's neither fair nor foul.

Rule 5-1-1 The ball becomes dead immediately when: e. there is interference by a runner or a retired runner

Rule 7-4-12 In this play, the ONLY way they could get two outs would be if the interference by the BR prevented a possible double play, which it didn't.

Please note this is a baseball interpretation, not a softball interpretation.  The wording of the rules are different as we discovered.

 

Additionally, in either BB or SB in NFHS, you do not have batter runner interference.  You have retired runner interference.  Different penalty.

[The Man in Blue]

20 hours ago, grayhawk said:

The question of precisely when the BR is out on the IFF if fair + interference scenario is largely academic.  Think of the possibilities:

1.  The BR is out when IFF is declared (assuming the ball becomes fair).  This makes it interference by a retired runner.  BR is out.  We can get a second out if the defense could have played on another runner.

2.  The BR's status is unknown until the ball becomes fair or foul.  This is BR interference, the BR is out for interference, and if the interference prevented a double play, then the runner the defense would have played on is out, and if that cannot be determined (because they could have played on multiple runners), then the runner closest to home is out.

In both scenarios, the BR is out.  In both scenarios, we get a second out if and only if we judge the defense could have gotten another out if not for the interference.

Just wanting to make sure this is clear ... again ... this is correct for BASEBALL.  It is NOT correct for softball (which was the posted clip).  The softball rule is written so that the runner closest to home is out on retired runner interference.  Softball does not add the requirement of having another play.

[johnnyg08]

NFHS Softball

 

[The Man in Blue]

4 minutes ago, johnnyg08 said:

NFHS Softball

 

There is no batter runner.  The batter was retired on the infield fly.  There is a retired runner.  See the NFHS rules posted on page one.

[johnnyg08]

Softball and baseball definitions of IFF essentially the same definition. 

 

[johnnyg08]

On 8/18/2019 at 12:43 PM, The Man in Blue said:

SECTION 50 RUNNER, RETIRED RUNNER

ART. 1 . . . Runner. A runner is an offensive player who is advancing to, touching or returning to a base.

ART. 2 . . . Retired Runner. A retired runner is a player who has scored, or who has been put out and who is still in live-ball territory.

Ergo, the batter runner is now a retired runner (to be reversed ONLY after the ball is foul IF it ends up being a foul ball).  Which takes us to:

Not sure I agree. 

At the time of the interference the ball was not fair or foul. It appeared to be in flight over fair territory. 

"A batter-runner is out when a fielder attempts to make an initial play"

To have an infield fly, you need a fair ball.

At the time of the interference, the ball was neither fair nor foul it was airborne. 

I have the batter runner out for interference. 

[The Man in Blue]

1 hour ago, johnnyg08 said:

Not sure I agree. 

At the time of the interference the ball was not fair or foul. It appeared to be in flight over fair territory. 

"A batter-runner is out when a fielder attempts to make an initial play"

To have an infield fly, you need a fair ball.

At the time of the interference, the ball was neither fair nor foul it was airborne. 

I have the batter runner out for interference. 

Even though we use the “If fair” verbiage, the rules do not provide for an indeterminate status between fair and foul, not even on an infield fly.  An infield fly is an out until it becomes a foul ball.  This is not expressly written, but it is communicated in the language used.

NFHS 2016 Softball Case Book

8.2.9 SITUATION A: The umpire calls “infield fly”but the ball curves and becomes a foul ball.  RULING: The call is reversed.  It is not an infield fly but an ordinary foul.  The batter is not out unless the foul fly is caught.  If caught, each runner shall retouch the base occupied at the time of the pitch.  (2-30)

8.2.9 SITUATION B: With R1 on second and R2 on first and less than two outs, B3 hits a pop-up that comes down over foul territory.  Is this an infield fly if (a) it touches ground out of the reach of all infielders and then takes a long hop into fair territory between home and first or (b) it is within reach of an infielder who does not touch it and the ball bounces into fair territory?  RULING: It is not an infield fly in (a) If the umpire thinks it is not within reach of any infielder.  In (b), it is an infield fly. (2-30)

NFHS 2018 Baseball Case Book (essentially the exact same language)

7.4.1 SITUATION E: The umpire calls “infield fly if fair” but the ball curves to foul territory. RULING: The announcement is reversed. It is not an infield fly but an ordinary foul. The batter is not out unless foul fly is caught. If the fly is caught, each runner must retouch his base before attempting to advance. (8-4-1j)

7.4.1 SITUATION F: With less than two outs and R2 on second and R1 on first, B4 hits a pop-up that comes down over foul territory. Is this an infield fly if (a) it touches the ground out of reach of all infielders and then takes a long hop into fair territory between home and first or (b) it is within reach of a fielder who does not touch it and ball bounces to fair territory? RULING: Not an infield fly in (a) if umpire thinks it is not within reach of any fielder, but it is a fair ball. In (b), it is an infield fly (2-19-1, 8-4-1j)

7.4.1 SITUATION G: With R2 on second and R1 on first and one out, B4 hits a high fly to second base which could have been caught by F4. Neither umpire declares "infield fly." F4 unintentionally drops the ball but picks it up and tags R1 who is off the base. RULING: The half-inning is over as R1' s out is the third out. The infield fly out for the second out holds even though it was not declared. The situation determines the out, not the declaration. The umpires should always declare "Infield Fly, If Fair" to lessen any confusion.

 

Then again, the rules state it must be declared to be an infield fly when the case books say otherwise.