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Replay That's a Waste of Time

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I saw this in a LL Softball game, but the same could happen at any level of the LLWS program.

R3.  B4 hits a bounding ball right on the 3B line.  ESPN had a camera dead set on 3BL-X as well as an overhead camera watching the PU.  About 50 feet down, the ball looked foul when it was touched by F5, and the PU so called it right away after the touch.

OTM wanted a replay.

Supposed it had been overturned?  What do you do now?  You cannot UN-foul a batted ball (unless you are Angel Hernandez).  It would seem the only thing you could do is take the strike away from the count.  But I sure as heck would not award bases to the batter or the runner.  What's to say F5 couldn't have thrown R3 out at home had the ball been ruled fair?

Question is, why do they waste time on a fair/foul judgement that has been ruled FOUL?  I could see it the other way, because you theoretically change the call to foul and reset runners and the batter quite logically.

SMH!

Mike

Las Vegas

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To Vegas’s point — and I have not seen the play in question — I would come back and say “OK coach, fair ball, but I think it was going to be a double-play if it played out.  So instead of a strike, you now have two outs.”

I don’t like it.  I don’t mind placing runners when I have something to work with (i.e., an obstruction call).  With changing a foul ball to a fair ball, I have nothing to work with.  Can I call the runner out if I thought that’s how it would have played out?  Can I put her on third because she’s little and looks fast plus I know F5 hasn’t made an on target throw the whole game?

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I think a lot of people worry themselves with things that are of no consequence to them when they don't know the procedures that are actually in place... 

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Saw the play.  R3 and ball rolling down the third base line.

F5 touched the ball but it bounced off her glove and bounced foot or two away (foul territory).

IF the call had been been overturned (foul to fair) I would have placed the batter on first (due to the deflection, F5 could probably not have thrown her out).  I would have kept R3 at third (not scoring on a ball half way down the third baseline).

It was very close but correctly ruled foul (IMO).

 

The other very close call that was overturned was the play at first in the first inning. Originally ruled as out number three but upon replay the call was changed to safe resulting in R3 scoring the first run of the game.

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Why the heck unless its a homerun would they have replay for a close fair or foul call if the Umpire signaled it and the runners acted per the call?

 

Makes 0 sense to me.  leave that part of humanity in the game please jeez.

 

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I was binging games this weekend and finally saw this.  

It would have been nice if the TV announcers had explained what would happen if it was overturned.  Or maybe they did and I missed it.

Now that I saw it, IMO it is still one of the silliest things I have ever seen.  Logically, the offensive coach wouldn’t have challenged it had it been caught ... but could the defensive coach challenge it claiming his player would have thrown the runner out?  Sheer silliness.

Related note — some of the rulings on the replay challenges in the LL Softball World Series were downright baffling.  Apparently they use a different standard or had angles the TV cameras didn’t.

I know Gil and the Close Call staff just released stats on MLB replay for this season.  It would be interesting to know the stats on the replay challenges in the LLWS.  How do the volunteer umpires stack up?

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Sure as I'm sitting here, in yesterday's international bracket, the batter bunted a ball that landed flat 6" in front of home plate.  PU called it foul!

They asked for a replay, and it was overturned!  They just did a do-over.  They eliminated the pitch count and the strike.

So I guess it IS possible to un-foul a call.

Mike

Las Vegas

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Just watched this ... 

 

Umm ... OK?

 

Honestly, I’m a bit torn on this ... we want to get the call right.  On that stage LL wants us to get it right ... but what precedent did that just set when it is not in the rules?  (Or is it in LL rules that you can call a do-over?)

Isn’t there another very active thread right now about “Don’t make $4it up?!”  LL just did.  Sometimes you just got to eat it ...

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The single greatest problem (?... challenge?) facing Little League is the presence of ESPN. Indeed, this is true of any sports organization that courts a contract with televised broadcast partners – every call or action becomes reviewable, whether outlined in the Rules and Procedures or not. This crops up in basketball, where on a ball knocked out of bounds, and the officials review it to see who last touched it, the replay reveals that Player A fouled Player B such that the ball went off Player B. Can a foul be called off a replay like that? The NFL now has to implement replays on (potential) pass interference penalties because of... some... things... that have happened. Why’s this? Because everybody, via the benefit of the camera’s presence, saw it! It’s right there! “Get the call right!”

 I can’t help but think – if that exact same situation and action occurred back at Anywhereville, USA, does it get scrutinized and resolved the same way? Is it just kept as a Foul Ball? Does the HC dare to use the P-word? Does the umpire indignantly point out that Fair-Foul is a judgement call, and judgement calls are not subject to Protest? Does a Board or Committee get involved? Is there some Mom (or Dad, to be fair) pressing a smartphone up to the backstop fence, beseeching, “I’ve got it on video right here!”?

So, everything becomes reviewable. At least, in the mind and perception of a coach (and, the supporting parents) it does. Have we not come all this way? Did we not put our kids in spiffy new uniforms and coached them on what to say during an interview? Do we not have cameras encircling the field?... Then you better review it (whatever “it” is). 

Now, to that particular play... can we really assume that BR would have reached 1B safely had PU judged Fair? No. Neither can we say that anything else would have transpired, so we can’t just go placing Runners. Thus, a “Do-Over” is the only recourse LL has available to it.

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2 hours ago, Aging_Arbiter said:

Is that in Kansas?

I can't say that I've been to EVERY town in the state, but definitely the majority. And I've never heard of it.

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20 hours ago, MadMax said:

Now, to that particular play... can we really assume that BR would have reached 1B safely had PU judged Fair? No. Neither can we say that anything else would have transpired, so we can’t just go placing Runners. Thus, a “Do-Over” is the only recourse LL has available to it.

In the Little League Baseball clip (link below), there's no one else on base and it doesn't appear anyone on the field adjusted what they did with the incorrect call. F2 threw out BR by several feet, and it doesn't look like BR even slowed down. If I were the guy behind the screen, we're calling BR out.

 

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3 hours ago, yawetag said:

If I were the guy behind the screen, we're calling BR out.

At the 53:04 mark, Karl Ravech says the most important phrase, relevant to this situation: “That’s a lot of assumptions being made...”

We cannot assume anything. This is why we chastise colleagues working Plate, who bellow “Foul!” as soon as the ball hits the grass down either baseline. Something might change! Let it stop rolling, be touched, or cross the plane of the bag before judging and decreeing what it is.

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Since Mad Max brought up the NFL, although it doesn’t necessarily have to be just them ...

 

I suppose I am a bit of a hypocrite on this issue.  I have always been critical of “this type of play is not reviewable”.  If you are going to use instant replay, use it.  What makes play type A any less or more important than play type B?

However, I am fully on the side of “why use instant replay if you can’t correct the error.”  The foul ball review is, IMO, unfixable with any rationality.  Unfortunately, as MM pointed out, “do over” seems to the most rational course of action.  (Except it really isn’t a do-over as a strategic advantage has now shifted.)

My criticism of the “do-over” in this case is this: if it isn’t in the LL rule book, then they are applying a MSU ruling and that is even worse.

 

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On 8/19/2019 at 9:32 AM, The Man in Blue said:

It would have been nice if the TV announcers had explained what would happen if it was overturned.  Or maybe they did and I missed it.

 

The announcers have no idea what would have happened if it was overturned.

 

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