Illegal Glove

[Guest LPW]

An outfielder made a catch for an out while wearing a 1st baseman's glove. When asked about it, the umpire said the out was legitimate, but from that point on, the outfielder had to get a legal glove. Is this the proper ruling? 

[agdz59 27]

36 minutes ago, Guest LPW said:

An outfielder made a catch for an out while wearing a 1st baseman's glove. When asked about it, the umpire said the out was legitimate, but from that point on, the outfielder had to get a legal glove. Is this the proper ruling? 

As long as the glove meets the size specifications in the rules, it can be used.   NFHS has the same specification for all fielders other than catcher.  OBR has different specifications for catcher, 1B, and the other fielders.  So if you were playing under NFHS rules, more than likely it was legal for the outfielder to wear it.  If OBR, it might have been legal.

[The Man in Blue 428]

Sounds like that umpire hedged his bet ... he was going to be wrong on half of the call no matter what.

If the glove was ILLEGAL, he was wrong to let the out stand but correct in making the fielder remove the glove.

If the glove was LEGAL, he was correct to let the out stand, but wrong to make the fielder take it off going forward.

 

What rule set was the game played under?  (My answer was given under NFHS.)

[agdz59 27]

Tangent question - have any of you had to handle a glove appeal?  Never have and I'm not sure what I'd do.  I don't carry a measuring tape and, in fact, haven't memorized the permissible dimensions.

[Senor Azul 458]

From the 2016 BRD (section 131, p. 104):

OBR Official Interpretation:  Wendelstedt:  A catch made with an illegal glove stands. The glove is removed.

Authoritative Opinion:  Evans:  The penalty (for an illegal glove) is temporary confiscation of the illegal glove. No play or game action shall be nullified because of such an equipment violation. Players who fail to cooperate with an umpire’s order may be ejected.

Note (from Carl Childress):  OBR treats an illegal glove like an illegal substitute. You toss the sub but keep his plays.

[Senor Azul 458]

From the 2018 Minor League Baseball Umpire Manual (section 3.7, p. 32):

Official Baseball Rules 3.04, 3.05, and 3.06 describe proper glove measurements and should be enforced for all gloves used in Minor League games…

Measurements should be made from the front of the receiving side of the glove and the measuring tape should be placed in contact with the glove and follow all contours.

An umpire may measure a questionable glove at his discretion, or the opposing manager may request a glove be measured…All measurements will be taken by the umpire between innings only. If the glove is illegal, it will be temporarily confiscated. A player refusing to obey the umpire’s order may be ejected from the game. Play that has occurred prior to the measurement will be allowed to stand…

[Senor Azul 458]

2018 NFHS Rule 1-5 ART. 7 . . . If a ball is touched with an illegal glove or mitt, that is discovered by the umpire, the coach or captain of the team at bat has the choice of taking the result of the play or having the award (8-3-3a, b, c) for use of an illegal glove or mitt. The illegal glove or mitt must be replaced immediately. A foul fly caught with an illegal glove/mitt shall be nullified and treated as a foul ball, unless the team at bat elects to take the result of the play.

2018 NFHS Rule 8-3 ART. 3 . . . Each runner is awarded:

a. four bases (home) if a fair ball goes over a fence in flight or hits a foul pole above the fence, or is prevented from going over by being touched by a spectator, or is touched by an illegal glove/mitt or detached player equipment which is thrown, tossed, kicked or held by a fielder;

b. three bases if a batted ball (other than in item a) is touched by an illegal glove or mitt, or by detached player equipment which is thrown, tossed, kicked or held by a fielder, provided the ball when touched is on or over fair ground, or is a fair ball while on or over foul ground, or is over foul ground in a situation such that it might become a fair ball;

c. two bases if a fair batted or thrown ball becomes dead because of bouncing over or passing through a fence, or lodges in a defensive player’s or umpire’s equipment or uniform; or if a live thrown ball:

1. including a pitch, is touched by an illegal glove or mitt, or by detached player equipment which is thrown, tossed, kicked or held by a fielder; or

 

[The Man in Blue 428]

3 hours ago, agdz59 said:

Tangent question - have any of you had to handle a glove appeal?  Never have and I'm not sure what I'd do.  I don't carry a measuring tape and, in fact, haven't memorized the permissible dimensions.

 

I’ve had it questioned after a game on two different occasions, but never actually appealed.  

[The Man in Blue 428]

Just to help define an “illegal glove” in NFHS ...

NFHS 2018

Rule 1 Players, Field and Equipment

SECTION 3 BATS, BALLS AND GLOVES

ART. 6 . . . Gloves/ mitts made of leather shall be worn by all fielders and not be altered to create an adhesive, sticky, and/ or tacky surface. The glove/ mitt worn by the catcher may be any size. The glove/ mitt worn by the pitcher that includes the colors white and/ or gray shall be removed from the game upon discovery by either team and/ or umpire. The glove/ mitt worn by all fielders except the catcher shall conform to the following maximum specifications (found in Diagram 4):

a. Height (measured from the bottom edge or heel straight up across the center of the palm to a line even with the highest point of the glove/ mitt): 14 inches

b. Width of palm (measured from the bottom edge of the webbing farthest from the thumb in a horizontal line to the outside of the little finger edge of the glove/ mitt): 8 inches

c. Webbing (measured across the top end or along any line parallel to the top): 5 ¾ inches

[yawetag 804]

9 hours ago, agdz59 said:

Tangent question - have any of you had to handle a glove appeal?  Never have and I'm not sure what I'd do.  I don't carry a measuring tape and, in fact, haven't memorized the permissible dimensions.

Unless the glove is drastically altered from the original design, I'm going to assume that any glove manufactured by a company you've heard of is within the rules.

[noumpere 3,126]

12 hours ago, The Man in Blue said:

Sounds like that umpire hedged his bet ... he was going to be wrong on half of the call no matter what.

If the glove was ILLEGAL, he was wrong to let the out stand but correct in making the fielder remove the glove.

If the glove was LEGAL, he was correct to let the out stand, but wrong to make the fielder take it off going forward.

 

That is correct under FED.  And, in FED, the same dimensions apply to all fielders gloves -- so the 1b glove was (likely) legal to be used by F9.

OBR differentiates between a glove and a mitt -- F9 must wear a glove, not a mitt.  F3 can wear either.  The OP indicates it was F3's "glove" -- but that might be a misstatement.

[Aging_Arbiter 1,507]

12 hours ago, agdz59 said:

Tangent question - have any of you had to handle a glove appeal?  Never have and I'm not sure what I'd do.  I don't carry a measuring tape and, in fact, haven't memorized the permissible dimensions.

you shouldn't need a measuring tape.  Use home plate.  The long edge across the front is 17 inches (the grip (or pine tar) may not exceed 18 inches on a bat). the two sides are 8.5 inches and from the break to the point of the plate is 12 inches. I believe the glove rule is 14 inches.....which you could use the break to point for....you can guesstimate 2 inches.

[yawetag 804]

Is this when we mention that the dimensions of the plate make it impossible to make the point a 90° angle?

[The Man in Blue 428]

3 hours ago, noumpere said:

That is correct under FED.  And, in FED, the same dimensions apply to all fielders gloves -- so the 1b glove was (likely) legal to be used by F9.

OBR differentiates between a glove and a mitt -- F9 must wear a glove, not a mitt.  F3 can wear either.  The OP indicates it was F3's "glove" -- but that might be a misstatement.

Thank you ... I edited and clarified my comment.

No glove, no love!  No mitt, go get it!

[Rich Ives 1,140]

5 hours ago, yawetag said:

Unless the glove is drastically altered from the original design, I'm going to assume that any glove manufactured by a company you've heard of is within the rules.

That would be unwise

[maven 4,706]

3 hours ago, yawetag said:

Is this when we mention that the dimensions of the plate make it impossible to make the point a 90° angle?

Rounded to the nearest degree, it is 90°.

[yawetag 804]

43 minutes ago, maven said:

Rounded to the nearest degree, it is 90°.

My guess is that the point is made 90, and they adjust somewhere else (probably on sides a and b in your picture.

[kylehutson 537]

1 hour ago, yawetag said:

My guess is that the point is made 90, and they adjust somewhere else (probably on sides a and b in your picture.

...and if they do that, you'll find that the width of the plate is actually 16.97". I bet that 3/100 inch throws off a lot of batters.

[maven 4,706]

2 hours ago, yawetag said:

My guess is that the point is made 90, and they adjust somewhere else (probably on sides a and b in your picture.

My guess is that the tolerances for most HP's are not within 0.2°, and they don't care to make it much more precise.

As Kyle's post suggests, we're talking about .03 inches or less.

This is much more interesting than discussing illegal gloves. You're all welcome for (my contributions to) the hijack.

[beerguy55 662]

9 hours ago, yawetag said:

Unless the glove is drastically altered from the original design, I'm going to assume that any glove manufactured by a company you've heard of is within the rules.

Within the rules for the game, but not necessarily the position.   You gonna let an outfielder wear a F3 glove (trapper) or a F2 glove (decker)?

[yawetag 804]

14 hours ago, beerguy55 said:

Within the rules for the game, but not necessarily the position.   You gonna let an outfielder wear a F3 glove (trapper) or a F2 glove (decker)?

I thought that was obvious. I apologize for giving our umpires here some credit.

[noumpere 3,126]

15 hours ago, beerguy55 said:

Within the rules for the game, but not necessarily the position.   You gonna let an outfielder wear a F3 glove (trapper) or a F2 glove (decker)?

Yes, in FED.

[noumpere 3,126]

16 hours ago, kylehutson said:

...and if they do that, you'll find that the width of the plate is actually 16.97". I bet that 3/100 inch throws off a lot of batters.

Not true.  Well, mathematically true, I suppose, but not by rule.

 

The 17" side that faces the pitcher is defined in the rules book.  The back point is defined as the 90* angle where the foul lines meet.  The corners are cut out - -so the 8.5" side id defined.  That only leave the 12" side to be approximated.

[kylehutson 537]

3 minutes ago, noumpere said:

Not true.  Well, mathematically true, I suppose, but not by rule.

 

The 17" side that faces the pitcher is defined in the rules book.  The back point is defined as the 90* angle where the foul lines meet.  The corners are cut out - -so the 8.5" side id defined.  That only leave the 12" side to be approximated.

So 12.02" by my calculator.

But still, you probably find more variation between different runs of the same brand.

Interestingly, if you did make the corner 90.199 degrees, and used that to mark your lines, on a 350' field, that would widen the foul poles by about 14.6 inches.

[yawetag 804]

40 minutes ago, kylehutson said:

Interestingly, if you did make the corner 90.199 degrees, and used that to mark your lines, on a 350' field, that would widen the foul poles by about 14.6 inches.

Let's dig deeper. Since 2B is defined first, and then the intersection of the two 90-foot from 2B and the plate makes the outside corner of the bag (from home plate), wouldn't that then no longer make that square a square? The "square" is from point of home plate to back of 1B, to middle of 2B, to back of 3B, to point of home plate.

Though now I think about it, the square would be real, but wouldn't be lined perfectly to the home plate "diagonals".

[kylehutson 537]

2 minutes ago, yawetag said:

Let's dig deeper. Since 2B is defined first, and then the intersection of the two 90-foot from 2B and the plate makes the outside corner of the bag (from home plate), wouldn't that then no longer make that square a square? The "square" is from point of home plate to back of 1B, to middle of 2B, to back of 3B, to point of home plate.

Oh yeah, even at 90 degrees, it's a baseball diamond, not a baseball square. It's 90' to from the back corner of the plate to the outside corners of 1st and 3rd, but 90' from those corners to the *center* of 2nd.

Hmm... But if we were at 90.199 degrees, that would separate 1st and 3rd by 3.75", so (...math...) the "diamond" would actually become more "square" - putting the corners of 1st and 2nd (and 2nd and 3rd) at 90'1.90"