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Guest sbfan

Runner obstructed at 3B, is awarded Home, but never touches plate

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Guest sbfan

Tied score, bottom of last inning. R1 is on 2B at time of pitch, before play starts.

During live play, R1 is obstructed by F5 at 3B who does not possess baseball. Runner continues toward HP. F2 receives baseball and blocks HP. R1 slides into F2, who tags R1 out. R1 never touches HP because F2, with possession of the baseball, blocked HP.

After the play is over Umpires rule that R1 was obstructed by F5 and R1 is awarded HP, which is the winning run and ends the game.

Even though it may be assumed that R1's awarded run counts since he already "passed" HP by leaving the field, is R1 required to return to the field to legally touch the awarded HP?

If R1 is required to touch HP, and never does so, does the defense have the opportunity to appeal the missed base and have R1 ruled out before the Umpires leave the field?

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27 minutes ago, yawetag said:

It was a glorious day when they removed that from the book (of course, most of us didn't do it).

Didn't "clothesline" ............or didn't stop using that mechanic when it was removed?

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2 hours ago, Aging_Arbiter said:

Didn't "clothesline" ............or didn't stop using that mechanic when it was removed?

I never used it.

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Mr. beerguy55, there is another answer to your question about how to appeal after the game is over that can be found in the 2016 BRD (section 16, pp. 29-30):

Play 24-16:  R1, 2 outs. B1 hits for extra bases but is thrown out at third to end the half-inning. The defensive players all rush off the field except for the catcher, who is in foul territory. He turns to the plate umpire and says:  “I appeal that R1 missed the plate.” Ruling:  At all levels, the appeal is legal.

Note (from Carl Childress):  An umpire applying the rule literally would dismiss the appeal. But the catcher is still in his position, and he is supposed to be in foul territory. Further, umpires often have a problem getting a fresh ball alive. BRD recommends:  When an appeal occurs at the end of a game or an inning, the ball is alive as soon as the player appealing has a game ball.

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15 hours ago, Aging_Arbiter said:

Didn't "clothesline" ............or didn't stop using that mechanic when it was removed?

Both.

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Well, it made more sense than drop kicking the runner ... :beerbang

 

This message was not officially approved by Ricky “The Dragon” Steamboat.

 

The “hand out” is still used in softball.  Most softball umpires (around here) will not verbalize the obstruction, instead just giving the hand signal (and no, you do not leave it out the whole time — if you are moving, make the call and drop the arm).   What is funny is that if you do verbalize it, the players tend to stop playing because they aren’t used to the verbal notification.

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On 7/26/2019 at 3:08 PM, Guest sbfan said:

When the PU called obstruction, does this become an immediate dead ball? Or is there such a thing as a delayed dead-ball situation?

First, the answer to your questions depends on what rule set the game is being played under.  In the case of the 2013 World Series it was clearly OBR (Official Baseball Rules (a/k/a "MLB Rules"). 

Under OBR, there are two types of obstruction.  (In fact, you will read umpires on these threads talk about "Type 1" vs. "Type 2" obstruction.  In previous editions of the rule book, the subsections of the obstruction rule had an "A" and a "B" so we called them "Type A" vs. "Type B" obstruction).  The difference between these two types of obstruction is that under one type of obstruction the ball becomes immediately dead.  Under the other type of obstruction there is a delayed dead ball.  (So, to answer your second question, there is a "delayed dead ball".)

If a runner is obstructed while a play is being made against him, the ball is immediately dead.  This is "Type 1" obstruction.  All runners are awarded the base they would have reached in the umpire's judgment had "time" not been called due to the obstruction.  In any event, the obstructed runner shall be awarded a minimum of one base beyond his last legally acquired base at the time of the obstruction.  The key word to understanding this rule is to understand what constitutes a "play". A "play" is: (1) A tag or attempted tag of a base by a defensive player in an attempt to retire a runner; (2) a tag or attempted tag of a runner by a defensive player in an attempt to retire that runner; (3) a throw by one fielder to another fielder in an attempt to retire a runner; and (4) a rundown.  You technically don't need number 4 as it is covered by 1-3, but some study guides (i.e. my Jacksa/Roder Manual from umpire school) include it to make it easy to remember.  So, if a runner is obstructed at the same time a "play" is occurring against that runner...the ball is immediately dead and the above-described penalties are enforced.

Type 2 obstruction occurs when no play is being made against the runner at the time he is obstructed.  The most common example of this occurs in youth ball when a batter hits the ball to the outfield wall and as he is running the bases (while the outfielders are chasing after the ball), the batter/runner is obstructed by the first baseman who is standing on or next to first base.  At the time that the batter/runner was obstructed by the first baseman there was no play (see numbers 1-4 above) being made against him as the ball was rolling to the wall.  Thus, this is "Type 2" obstruction.  In type 2 obstruction, the umpire shall allow play to continue and then at the end of the play he shall call "time" and award such penalties as will negate the obstruction.  [There are all kinds of rules interpretations and training that umpires are given to determine how to "award such penalties as will negate the obstruction" when Type 2 obstruction occurs.  That would take a long post and is beyond the scope of my reply to your questions above.]

In the 2013 World Series play, this was "Type 2" obstruction.  At the time the runner was obstructed, there was no play being made on him (the ball was on the ground in the outfield).  Now, what is interesting (and what I did not type in the immediate preceding paragraph) is that buried in the MLB Umpire's Manual (which contains rules interpretations which are binding on MLB umpires) there is a provision that states that "time" shall be called when: (1) "Type 2" obstruction occurs, (2) play is allowed to continue, and (3) the defense applies a tag against the obstructed runner and the umpire determines that the obstructed runner is still "protected" at the time of the tag  (that is, the runner is entitled to the base as a result of the obstruction).  So, in the World Series play, time should be called when the tag was made against the obstructed runner at the plate (since the umpires were protecting the runner).  Then, the umpire awards the runner home.  Since this is an award, the runner is required to touch the plate (and really, there is no excuse if he doesn't.)  If he fails to touch the plate, he can be called out on appeal as set forth above.  

For an example of what type of SH*#-house can result when "Type 2" obstruction occurs and the umpires forget how to properly apply the penalty as the play is occurring, check out a June 2007 game between the White Sox and the Cubs.  (Google "2007 Cubs vs. White Sox obstruction").  The umpires called the obstructed runner "out", then the White Sox got another runner "out" as the play continued.  After the play the umpires got together and realized that "time" should have been called when the first runner was tagged out (because he was still protected).  Thus, they overturned both outs.  The White Sox went from thinking they were out of a jam as a result of a crazy double-play, to the Cubs now having two runners in scoring position with 1 out.  A SH*# house resulted.

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5 hours ago, The Man in Blue said:

Well, it made more sense than drop kicking the runner ... :beerbang

 

This message was not officially approved by Ricky “The Dragon” Steamboat.

 

The “hand out” is still used in softball.  Most softball umpires (around here) will not verbalize the obstruction, instead just giving the hand signal (and no, you do not leave it out the whole time — if you are moving, make the call and drop the arm).   What is funny is that if you do verbalize it, the players tend to stop playing because they aren’t used to the verbal notification.

Ricky vs Macho Man was the best match I ever saw.

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11 hours ago, umpstu said:

Ricky vs Macho Man was the best match I ever saw.

Did you know Randy Savage played minor league baseball?  A bunch of friends and I were at a restaurant in the mid 2000's when we noticed him sitting there.  We left him alone but when he heard we were talking baseball he came over and bs'd with us for 20 minutes.  He was a real nice guy.

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4 hours ago, urout17 said:

Did you know Randy Savage played minor league baseball?  A bunch of friends and I were at a restaurant in the mid 2000's when we noticed him sitting there.  We left him alone but when he heard we were talking baseball he came over and bs'd with us for 20 minutes.  He was a real nice guy.

If, I'm not mistaken, I think his brother did as well.

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5 hours ago, urout17 said:

Did you know Randy Savage played minor league baseball?  A bunch of friends and I were at a restaurant in the mid 2000's when we noticed him sitting there.  We left him alone but when he heard we were talking baseball he came over and bs'd with us for 20 minutes.  He was a real nice guy.

For your edification

https://www.baseball-reference.com/register/player.fcgi?id=poffo-001ran

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