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Guest sbfan

Runner obstructed at 3B, is awarded Home, but never touches plate

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Guest sbfan

Tied score, bottom of last inning. R1 is on 2B at time of pitch, before play starts.

During live play, R1 is obstructed by F5 at 3B who does not possess baseball. Runner continues toward HP. F2 receives baseball and blocks HP. R1 slides into F2, who tags R1 out. R1 never touches HP because F2, with possession of the baseball, blocked HP.

After the play is over Umpires rule that R1 was obstructed by F5 and R1 is awarded HP, which is the winning run and ends the game.

Even though it may be assumed that R1's awarded run counts since he already "passed" HP by leaving the field, is R1 required to return to the field to legally touch the awarded HP?

If R1 is required to touch HP, and never does so, does the defense have the opportunity to appeal the missed base and have R1 ruled out before the Umpires leave the field?

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The run scores, but the defense may appeal the missed base (if time was called, I must admit, I'm not sure how the exact mechanics of that would work, unless it's played under FED, in which case a dead ball appeal is appropriate. Looking forward to hearing others.)

If officiated correctly, the obstruction should have been called at the time it happened, not after the play. It may be that it was called, and no one else heard it. I've had that happen before, and it can be a mess.

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[First, please note that no entity currently uses "R1" to denote the lead runner.  Rather, the number denotes which base a runner was on at the time of the pitch.  So, in your play you had an "R2".  I will use that accordingly in this response.]

Before I answer the OP, here is the issue I am having: 

It was written in the OP, "after the play is over," the umpires awarded R2 home.  I'm trying to envision how this ward was not made immediately (seconds after F2 tagged R2)...under ANY rule set.  The reason I state this is because the OP stated that this run was the "winning run" (being scored in the bottom of the last inning with the score tied).  I don't understand how the play didn't end immediately right then.  Did F2 tag the runner out and then throw somewhere to make a play against the B/R?  If so, did the umpire originally call R2 "out" (causing R2 to run off the field) and then come back and change his call to "safe" a minute or so later?  I need more specific facts as to what EXACTLY happened (what the umpires did or did not do) before I can answer the question. 

I am wondering if there was an umpire error that caused R2 to miss home plate.  If this game was played under OBR, the umpire should have called "time" immediately when R2 was tagged by F2, but the umpire decided he was going to award R2 home plate.  Under OBR, this is true no matter at what point in the game this play occurred.  Even under FED rules, (where there is no Type 2 obstruction) the umpire still should have called the player "safe" on obstruction (even if he left the ball "live").  Furthermore, in a FED game the umpire in this specific play should have called "time" as the award of home due to obstruction ended the game.  If the umpire had awarded R2 home immediately (a second after the tag by F2)...then R2 would still be on the ground (he just slid) in the dirt circle.  Thus, R2 would be subject to being called "out" for missing home plate due to the fact that he was still in the dirt circle at the time the umpire awarded him home and R2 had every opportunity to touch the plate.  But, if the umpires called R2 "out" and didn't change their call to "safe due to obstruction" until much later (after R2 was in his dugout)...then we have an entirely different issue of how we undue a player's action (or inaction) that is a result of an umpire's error.  

I'm interested a "blow-by-blow" (with details) of exactly what the umpires did and also I'm interested to know what rule set was used.

 

 

 

 

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28 minutes ago, lawump said:

[First, please note that no entity currently uses "R1" to denote the lead runner.  Rather, the number denotes which base a runner was on at the time of the pitch.  So, in your play you had an "R2".  I will use that accordingly in this response.]

Before I answer the OP, here is the issue I am having: 

It was written in the OP, "after the play is over," the umpires awarded R2 home.  I'm trying to envision how this ward was not made immediately (seconds after F2 tagged R2)...under ANY rule set.  The reason I state this is because the OP stated that this run was the "winning run" (being scored in the bottom of the last inning with the score tied).  I don't understand how the play didn't end immediately right then.  Did F2 tag the runner out and then throw somewhere to make a play against the B/R?  If so, did the umpire originally call R2 "out" (causing R2 to run off the field) and then come back and change his call to "safe" a minute or so later?  I need more specific facts as to what EXACTLY happened (what the umpires did or did not do) before I can answer the question. 

I am wondering if there was an umpire error that caused R2 to miss home plate.  If this game was played under OBR, the umpire should have called "time" immediately when R2 was tagged by F2, but the umpire decided he was going to award R2 home plate.  Under OBR, this is true no matter at what point in the game this play occurred.  Even under FED rules, (where there is no Type 2 obstruction) the umpire still should have called the player "safe" on obstruction (even if he left the ball "live").  Furthermore, in a FED game the umpire in this specific play should have called "time" as the award of home due to obstruction ended the game.  If the umpire had awarded R2 home immediately (a second after the tag by F2)...then R2 would still be on the ground (he just slid) in the dirt circle.  Thus, R2 would be subject to being called "out" for missing home plate due to the fact that he was still in the dirt circle at the time the umpire awarded him home and R2 had every opportunity to touch the plate.  But, if the umpires called R2 "out" and didn't change their call to "safe due to obstruction" until much later (after R2 was in his dugout)...then we have an entirely different issue of how we undue a player's action (or inaction) that is a result of an umpire's error.  

I'm interested a "blow-by-blow" (with details) of exactly what the umpires did and also I'm interested to know what rule set was used.

 

 

 

 

How I'm reading it, was that obstruction was never called until the play was entierly over, then, probably after the offensive manager complained, the umpires got together and said, yes, we missed obstruction at third (it was F5, not F2, that obstructed according to OP, so probably don't have type two). 

Is a non called obstruction a correctable error?

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Sounds like OBS was called at third base, and the play continued.  The runner is then tagged before touching the plate at home and the plate umpire (not knowing that OBS was called) calls him out.  Play relaxes and the base umpire informs the plate umpire that he had obstruction and the run scores.  The runner never touched the plate and the question is whether he should be called out on proper appeal.  The answer is...maybe.  This is a situation where the runner was simply called out at home, there was no reason for him to get up and touch the plate following the out call.  If he's in the dugout while the umpires got together, then I am not going to make him come out and touch the plate.  However, if the runner is standing at the plate area and the umpire pointed at him and said "You, score," then it would be reasonable to expect him to touch the plate.

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I'm thinking the World Series play.   The ball's dead at that point (isn't it?)...if he doesn't touch home (and I don't know if he ever did) how does the defense appeal?   They informing the ump they'd like the ball to be made live so they can appeal?

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Guest sbfan

Yes I am referring to the Cardinals/Red Sox World Series game-3-ending play, with the video below.

I was mistaken in my OP, the PU does not call B2 out when he is tagged at home, but rather, during the play PU pointed at the obstruction at 3B when it occurred and signalled B2 safe at HP when he was tagged by F2, and B2 was awarded HP, and the game was over.

When the PU called obstruction, does this become an immediate dead ball? Or is there such a thing as a delayed dead-ball situation?

Back to my OP, R2 never touched HP. Are base runners obligated to touch awarded bases without liability to be put out? And if they are so obligated, can the defense still appeal the missed base before the umpires have let the field?

 

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32 minutes ago, Guest sbfan said:

Yes I am referring to the Cardinals/Red Sox World Series game-3-ending play, with the video below.

I was mistaken in my OP, the PU does not call B2 out when he is tagged at home, but rather, during the play PU pointed at the obstruction at 3B when it occurred and signalled B2 safe at HP when he was tagged by F2, and B2 was awarded HP, and the game was over.

When the PU called obstruction, does this become an immediate dead ball? Or is there such a thing as a delayed dead-ball situation?

Back to my OP, R2 never touched HP. Are base runners obligated to touch awarded bases without liability to be put out? And if they are so obligated, can the defense still appeal the missed base before the umpires have let the field?

 

If there is a play (tag attempt) being made on the runner, it is immediately a dead ball. If there is not play being made on the runner (fielder does not have the ball, and is not trying to field the throw), then it is delayed dead ball. In the included play, the ball is past the F5, so he is no longer making a play when he obstructs the runner. Thus, it is a delayed dead ball, ruled correctly. 

Yes, runners still must touch all awarded bases, in order, else be at risk of being put out on appeal. Think about a home run, the ball is dead, and the defense has no way of making a play on the runner(s), but the runner(s) still must touch all bases.

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6 hours ago, Guest sbfan said:

Yes I am referring to the Cardinals/Red Sox World Series game-3-ending play, with the video below.

I was mistaken in my OP, the PU does not call B2 out when he is tagged at home, but rather, during the play PU pointed at the obstruction at 3B when it occurred and signalled B2 safe at HP when he was tagged by F2, and B2 was awarded HP, and the game was over.

When the PU called obstruction, does this become an immediate dead ball? Or is there such a thing as a delayed dead-ball situation?

Back to my OP, R2 never touched HP. Are base runners obligated to touch awarded bases without liability to be put out? And if they are so obligated, can the defense still appeal the missed base before the umpires have let the field?

 

Was mind blowing to me how many people kept claiming that the third baseman here was just trying to stand up.  In my life I have never stood up from that position by flopping my feet up in the air behind me.  NOT ONCE!   And secondly,  the amount of people claiming the runner ran out of the base line.  And some of these people were actually claiming to be NCAA Div1 umpires.

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9 hours ago, umpstu said:

Was mind blowing to me how many people kept claiming that the third baseman here was just trying to stand up.  In my life I have never stood up from that position by flopping my feet up in the air behind me.  NOT ONCE!   And secondly,  the amount of people claiming the runner ran out of the base line.  And some of these people were actually claiming to be NCAA Div1 umpires.

Someone correct me if I am wrong, but it probably didn't take flopping the feet around to be obstruction. As soon as the ball got away it became obstruction.

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2 hours ago, Mussgrass said:

Someone correct me if I am wrong, but it probably didn't take flopping the feet around to be obstruction. As soon as the ball got away it became obstruction.

No it didn't. It was textbok obstruction. That's what made all the 'controversy' surprising. 1.Fielder without ball. 2. Runner impeded in his effort to advance by said fielder. 3. You've got obstruction.

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33 minutes ago, agdz59 said:

No it didn't. It was textbok obstruction. That's what made all the 'controversy' surprising. 1.Fielder without ball. 2. Runner impeded in his effort to advance by said fielder. 3. You've got obstruction.

I think the reason a lot of people didn't think it should be obstruction was because, realistically, the F5 really couldn't have done anything about it. I've also heard people complain that the runner shouldn't have gotten up on the third base side of the bag, or that he was fishing for a call (both of which are ridiculous if you actually watch the play).

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7 hours ago, Mussgrass said:

Someone correct me if I am wrong, but it probably didn't take flopping the feet around to be obstruction. As soon as the ball got away it became obstruction.

Not what I'm saying.  Obstruction was obvious.   Standing up while flopping your feet up behind you is what people have claimed the third baseman was trying to do.  Dang it.  Red Sox won the series anyways.  Go Cards.

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On 7/26/2019 at 12:08 PM, Guest sbfan said:

Yes I am referring to the Cardinals/Red Sox World Series game-3-ending play, with the video below.

I was mistaken in my OP, the PU does not call B2 out when he is tagged at home, but rather, during the play PU pointed at the obstruction at 3B when it occurred and signalled B2 safe at HP when he was tagged by F2, and B2 was awarded HP, and the game was over.

When the PU called obstruction, does this become an immediate dead ball? Or is there such a thing as a delayed dead-ball situation?

Back to my OP, R2 never touched HP. Are base runners obligated to touch awarded bases without liability to be put out? And if they are so obligated, can the defense still appeal the missed base before the umpires have let the field?

 

I’m pretty sure his shoe clipped the edge of the plate.

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Let me ask ... I am very familiar with the accepted softball mechanic ... what is the proper NFHS baseball mechanic when a runner is tagged out with an obstruction applicable?  I am either overlooking it in NFHS books (rule book, umpire manual) or it isn’t in there.

Softball has a signal (extended left arm with fist, should verbalize “Obstruction!”).  I know baseball does not have a hand signal (beyond pointing at it and verbalizing, but I can’t find that either).  But here is what I am wondering:

In softball, the correct mechanic when the obstructed runner is tagged is to call the runner out and then immediately call “Time!”, announce the obstruction and award bases.  This is regardless of any other runners or potential action that could occur.

The only thing I can find in NFHS baseball is the ball becomes dead at the conclusion of the play ... so I am assuming that you do NOT kill play as soon as the obstructed runner is tagged out, but rather allow the rest of it to play out.

 

Edited to add the bolded section for clarity.

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I've been taught to verbalize "That's obstruction" with left hand in a fist pointing to the obstruction.  Keep it out until the play is over and then when time is called, award bases if the obstructed runner was put out or, in your judgement, did not get to the base you think they would have without the obstruction.  If the obstructed runner does make it to the base you think they would have gotten, ignore the call and carry on.

I don't see it anywhere online after a quick search either.

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4 hours ago, agdz59 said:

I've been taught to verbalize "That's obstruction" with left hand in a fist pointing to the obstruction.  Keep it out until the play is over and then when time is called, award bases if the obstructed runner was put out or, in your judgement, did not get to the base you think they would have without the obstruction.  If the obstructed runner does make it to the base you think they would have gotten, ignore the call and carry on.

I don't see it anywhere online after a quick search either.

That's an outdated mechanic for FED. Umpires are no longer supposed to extend the left arm, but the point and verbal indication should be used when you see the obstruction.

The verbal "That's nothing!" is also something that we can use to let everyone know that we saw no obstruction/interference on a given play.

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Can you point us to a written official NFHS source?  

I agree with you Kevin, but I can’t seem to find anything on proper signals/calling technique for obstruction.

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On 7/27/2019 at 1:58 PM, spark2212 said:

I’m pretty sure his shoe clipped the edge of the plate.

 

On 7/28/2019 at 7:46 AM, Larry in TN said:

Did anyone appeal a missed base at home?

IMO he never touched home.

My question is...how does the defense appeal this? At the plate the ump calls time, calls obstruction and awards home.  (right?)

So, the ball is now dead.

In OBR/MLB, appeals can only be made during a live ball.

The game is over.

Assuming an infielder remains in fair territory, what is the process to get the ball made live again so the defense can appeal the missed base at home? 

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44 minutes ago, beerguy55 said:

 

IMO he never touched home.

My question is...how does the defense appeal this? At the plate the ump calls time, calls obstruction and awards home.  (right?)

So, the ball is now dead.

In OBR/MLB, appeals can only be made during a live ball.

The game is over.

Assuming an infielder remains in fair territory, what is the process to get the ball made live again so the defense can appeal the missed base at home? 

They notify the umpire, the pitcher gets on the mound, the ball is made live, the appeal is made.  And, no, the runner can't return from the dugout / celebration.  Use 9.01(c) (or whatever) if needed.

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On 7/28/2019 at 9:29 PM, The Man in Blue said:

Can you point us to a written official NFHS source?  

I agree with you Kevin, but I can’t seem to find anything on proper signals/calling technique for obstruction.

I cannot point to a signal in an NFHS source that is no longer included in their umpiring signals.

As far as the point toward the play and verbalizing, it is something that I have learned through clinics and onfield observations. It is akin to this

 

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I know you can’t point to something that isn’t there :D ...

... but somewhere there has to be the current proper mechanic.  I can’t seem to find that.

 

oh, and ... You want me on that call.  You need me on that call!

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The delayed dead ball signal was removed from the FED baseball rule book and umpire manual in 2013.

From the 2016 BRD (section 377, p. 253):

Obstruction:  Umpire’s Signal

FED:  No Provision. Treat as in NCAA.

NCAA:  The umpire is to point and call:  “That’s obstruction!” (2-55; 8-3e and f Penalty)

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The delayed dead ball signal in Fed was the dumbest one, too. You had to point, say "That's obstruction!" and then keep your left hand held outward to your side (similar to a WWE wrestler attempting a clothesline) until the end of playing action.

It was a glorious day when they removed that from the book (of course, most of us didn't do it).

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