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Why is it so hard to advance?


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Question

I’d like to hear some feedback from the umpires here. 

In your opinion why is it hard to advance into higher levels of baseball. Be it from little league to Varsity Highschool it Highschool into College or even up into the higher ranks of college baseball. 

 

Lets hear it. 

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Guest Blue Guy

I am a two sport guy (soccer and baseball). I started with soccer 15 years ago ( 6 in HS soccer), and this will be my 7th baseball year in 2020 HS ball. My two experiences could not be more disparate. 

It is impossible to work HS varsity in our 48 school conference. In my first 6 years in Fed, I have worked 5 Varsity games. The rest are sub varsity, mostly because of shortages (and arcane rules), as a single umpire. Our association assigns from a list supplied by the COACHES of who they want to umpire their home games. It’s impossible to get on a list, because it’s impossible to be removed from a list. I walked a varsity game this year with an 84 partner, who told me pre-game that he only works the plate because he can’t move. He got nailed on the arm because he can’t get down for protection anymore and the game was held up for 20 minutes while he got bandaged. 

Contrast that with soccer. I’m pretty good, there are no lists, and I was working Varsity in my first year, county tournaments, state pre-lims, state sectionals and state finals by year 4. 

I could be Bill Klem reincarnated, and I will never get on a list.  

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27 minutes ago, Guest Blue Guy said:

I am a two sport guy (soccer and baseball). I started with soccer 15 years ago ( 6 in HS soccer), and this will be my 7th baseball year in 2020 HS ball. My two experiences could not be more disparate. 

It is impossible to work HS varsity in our 48 school conference. In my first 6 years in Fed, I have worked 5 Varsity games. The rest are sub varsity, mostly because of shortages (and arcane rules), as a single umpire. Our association assigns from a list supplied by the COACHES of who they want to umpire their home games. It’s impossible to get on a list, because it’s impossible to be removed from a list. I walked a varsity game this year with an 84 partner, who told me pre-game that he only works the plate because he can’t move. He got nailed on the arm because he can’t get down for protection anymore and the game was held up for 20 minutes while he got bandaged. 

Contrast that with soccer. I’m pretty good, there are no lists, and I was working Varsity in my first year, county tournaments, state pre-lims, state sectionals and state finals by year 4. 

I could be Bill Klem reincarnated, and I will never get on a list.  

Coaches should not be allowed to pick what umpires work their game.  Talk about having homer umpires.

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8 hours ago, umpstu said:

The younger generation comments, IMO, are just wrong.  Just listening to you and others talk down about the younger generation would be enough to drive them away.  I'm 60 and see people of our generation talking bad about them all of the time.   It sucks.  You can't have that attitude and then scratch your head when they won't join or drop out because of all of the negativity.  Experience is a great thing, but if they're 20 years old and already better than all of the others in your unit, will you not give them choice assignments because of the age/experience issue?   

I've worked with and assigned many young umpires to playoff/championship games over the old farts.  The excuse of this is only his first year in our association is a cop out.  Kid should be frustrated if he's better than the experienced guys and gets passed over.  Two examples: A foreign exchange student from Japan.  He had no transportation except for a bike to get him back and forth to school so myself and other forward thinking old farts would drive him to and from games.  This also gave us time to watch him work.  After watching him work preseason we asked about equipment and he had his parents ship his gear over.

We have a school here that is in the playoffs every year and after seeing this kid work the head varsity coach asked why he wasn't working not only varsity games, but the important games?  Not enough experience is the wrong excuse.

Another kid worked for me at the age of 18 in a fall ball tournament, varsity baseball game, and you could just see it.  He was getting ready to go to school and still did the stiff school mechanics.  But man was he good already.  He went to school, was selected and worked a season in Az.   He came back to me the following year and I was watching this kid work, so much smoother.  An old fart coach came up to me and asked if the kid was a pro and said that he just absolutely stood out from all of the other umpires.  I used him in the championship game on the dish.  Now this might have been fall ball, but it is a premiere high school varsity baseball tournament,  It's good enough to have a waiting list of schools and I use almost exclusively community college and pro umpires.

My point is, if the younger generation is good enough, work them over the older guys if they're better.  The millennial excuse is old.  

I don’t want to give off the wrong impression. Agree 100% if the young guy has talent, works hard and is reliable, I’m all for them getting big games and advancing quickly. 

What I was referring to, is a lot of the younger kids, not specifically in umpires, but overall, have this notion that if you show up, you advance. They are looking to advance before putting in the work, or time. I see it at work all the time. They want the raise and/or promotion before proving competency. This certainly doesn’t  apply to everyone. Plenty have work ethic and advance.  I just see too many who have the “ promote me first and pay me more then I’ll do the work” attitude.  Instead of “Watch me do the job. See what I can do, I can handle the next level”. 

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3 hours ago, Guest Blue Guy said:

I am a two sport guy (soccer and baseball). I started with soccer 15 years ago ( 6 in HS soccer), and this will be my 7th baseball year in 2020 HS ball. My two experiences could not be more disparate. 

It is impossible to work HS varsity in our 48 school conference. In my first 6 years in Fed, I have worked 5 Varsity games. The rest are sub varsity, mostly because of shortages (and arcane rules), as a single umpire. Our association assigns from a list supplied by the COACHES of who they want to umpire their home games. It’s impossible to get on a list, because it’s impossible to be removed from a list. I walked a varsity game this year with an 84 partner, who told me pre-game that he only works the plate because he can’t move. He got nailed on the arm because he can’t get down for protection anymore and the game was held up for 20 minutes while he got bandaged. 

Contrast that with soccer. I’m pretty good, there are no lists, and I was working Varsity in my first year, county tournaments, state pre-lims, state sectionals and state finals by year 4. 

I could be Bill Klem reincarnated, and I will never get on a list.  

I wanted to give this a like.  Blue Guy ... join us!

I have had that same experience multiple times.  That is part of what I lump into the “old boy network” around here (emphasis on OLD in this part).  Because I am willing to work “lower level” games, that’s what I get.  Meanwhile, guys who cannot move or see (literally) well enough to keep up get the better assignments (from their buddy) because they refuse to do anything else.

It is not unusual to look out on a field here and see a combined age over 130 on a two-man crew.

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13 hours ago, dumbdumb said:

Like that State on the Ocean that made a former AAA umpire go start out with the first year umpire cadet program after working 1000+ professional games? Basically like making him go back to umpire school again.

When was this?  I'm not familiar with that story, and your clues don't help.  You didn't specify which Ocean, so there are about 18-20 "States on the Ocean".

 

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14 hours ago, Aging_Arbiter said:

When was this?  I'm not familiar with that story, and your clues don't help.  You didn't specify which Ocean, so there are about 18-20 "States on the Ocean".

 

I know this story, or one that is very similar. Friend of mine worked AAA, even some spring MLB games, and they wouldn’t let him work varsity unless he attended the local class. He appealed to the state who backed the association. 

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15 hours ago, Aging_Arbiter said:

When was this?  I'm not familiar with that story, and your clues don't help.  You didn't specify which Ocean, so there are about 18-20 "States on the Ocean".

 

I know you want a signed affidavit of the above. It is East Coast and I will let the guys in that State go more into the Cadet, keep you down on the farm program, that even Doug Harvey would not have been able to get a special dispensation to work if he quit after 20 years in MLB.

Now, of course maybe it has changed since my criticism of this indentured servitude comment years ago, but I highly doubt it. Those in the know can tell more, just like those with Dusty Rhodes life and times, can tell more if they chose or inquire about in that State.

I will try to dig up an old comment (may take a while) on here if I can find it going back to 2010. I believe someone from that State chimed in with an it is what it is type answer. And that guy who forfeited a game when everyone came out on the field to fight in that state, i have not heard or read much about since that incident either, as I believe that person was also a State interpreter at one time. Sometimes old articles are hard to find and if you do not hit the exact keywords to an article or event, you will never find the story. I have in no way saved all the articles i have read over the years. If too old they are probably not even out there anymore. 

Once again, hopefully the few words I have used can bring out some from that State that are much more aware about an in depth point of view on that situation. And I may have read something on another forum years ago that was commented on. And of course, maybe I just dreamed it, but I highly doubt it. My dreams are always of being attacked by a vampire, with all those vampire programs. dd

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15 hours ago, Aging_Arbiter said:

When was this?  I'm not familiar with that story, and your clues don't help.  You didn't specify which Ocean, so there are about 18-20 "States on the Ocean".

 

Aging--it was LMsands who was commenting years ago on here just a few minutes ahead of me as I was replying to your question. I decided to go ahead and try to find this old conversation.

Here is the copy of the old conversation from 2012.

It speaks for itself. I trust LM. you can probably go back through it all.

 

 

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On 2/16/2012 at 7:48 AM, dumbdumb said:

 

  On 2/15/2012 at 6:36 AM, LMSANS said:

 

  On 2/15/2012 at 12:40 AM, johnnyg08 said:

 

  On 2/14/2012 at 9:37 PM, UmpTTS43 said:

So if I was to move to where you are at I would have to wait 2 years before I got just into Varsity ball having pro, DI and down experience? I think I'll stay put. :beerbang

 

Isn't that crazy that guys can sit there and tell you that with a straight face? You'd probably be one of the TOP guys in the group, yet they're too obtuse to think that it could even be possible that number of years umpiring doesn't necessarily equal how great you are.

 

 

Can you TOP this :smachhead: ?

My association told a AAA umpire he would have to cadet for a year, and work 40 sub-varsity games over the next 2 years, before he could work varsity ball. He said no. Went to the college group & another hs group. He now coaches in our area and has very few things to say about the org.

 

 

And I suppose the group gets off on this? Telling a respectable transfer D1,D2 or State Tournament HS umpire or forbid a former MiLB umpire that they have to start at the bottom and stay down on the farm so to speak and laugh about it. Many in these groups worked LL (I'm not busting on LL either)years ago and paid their dues this way before getting into D1 or pro and many HS umpires never worked LL at all. This speaks volumns in a negative way about this group above. Guess they need the money and outsiders dig into their cut. Very Very sad state of affairs.

 

 

I'm not bragging. Most of these guys have been doing HS ball for 20 - 30 years. The arrogance is thick (so are the heads). I work to get new blood in that will make things better. It is a slow painful process.

 

 

 

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57 minutes ago, dumbdumb said:

Aging--it was LMsands who was commenting years ago on here just a few minutes ahead of me as I was replying to your question. I decided to go ahead and try to find this old conversation.

Here is the copy of the old conversation from 2012.

It speaks for itself. I trust LM. you can probably go back through it all.

 

 

  • Crew Chief
  • LMSANS
  • Moderators
  • staff.png
  • 533
  • 2,348 posts
  • Location Brick, NJ
  • Your Association Name :Shore Umpires Association; ECIUA

 

 

I'm not bragging. Most of these guys have been doing HS ball for 20 - 30 years. The arrogance is thick (so are the heads). I work to get new blood in that will make things better. It is a slow painful process.

 

 

 

Those are the same guys who buy shirts when they go on clearance and then get a reg saying everybody has to wear that color.  So, they are now only 20 years behind.

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On 7/23/2019 at 10:32 PM, Richvee said:

I don’t want to give off the wrong impression. Agree 100% if the young guy has talent, works hard and is reliable, I’m all for them getting big games and advancing quickly. 

What I was referring to, is a lot of the younger kids, not specifically in umpires, but overall, have this notion that if you show up, you advance. They are looking to advance before putting in the work, or time. I see it at work all the time. They want the raise and/or promotion before proving competency. This certainly doesn’t  apply to everyone. Plenty have work ethic and advance.  I just see too many who have the “ promote me first and pay me more then I’ll do the work” attitude.  Instead of “Watch me do the job. See what I can do, I can handle the next level”. 

 

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Just to update the crowd...new leadership and the restrictions have been loosened significantly. Similar circumstance now, the umpire would just have to pass the HS rules test and they would be good to go...mainly due to supply and demand, but they are getting smarter.

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Here's another thought that came to me after chatting with @HokieUmp

Good umpires loose motivation and no longer want to move up. I was thinking this happens in a few ways, which I can see as being can happen either together or separately.

  • As said before the Good 'ol Boy system. Some good people decide they aren't going to kiss up, wait for one of the "in crowd" to die , or just fight the system 
  • Maybe related to the first.  - People get demoralized by seeing lesser umpires advancing ahead of them. Not speaking about sour grapes because they got passed up over others, but legitimate complaints. People who exemplify Availability or Ability. 
  • Still possibly related to the good ol boy network; Inaccessibility/Not being welcomed by some college groups/assigners.  Another ump and I came up together. He moved away and many moons later we went to separate collegiate camps in different areas of the country at about the same time and had somewhat similar experiences.
    • At my camp I felt overlooked, one of the primary instructors apparently ran a HS association in another area and those guys seemed to get all the attention. Only 2 of the dozen or so instructors even bothered to try to learn my name, Only 1 of the instructors actually made me feel welcome and gave me truly valuable feedback. 1 instructor nearly berated me in the locker room after my plate job. The initial feedback was pretty positive  then I asked a question (and I may not have worded it the best) but that opened the Gates of hell. 
    • My friend's camp he too felt unappreciated. He said his camp made him feel like they just wanted his money, he didn't get feedback from anybody and felt like a fish out of water. There was no wrap up or closure at the end of his camp and everybody just left. Unlike me, he was ultimately assigned games from his camp experience. Which was another awkward experience for him.
  • Pay to play  systems - I've heard this from multiple guys in different areas of the country. . 
    • You have to go to their camps annually. - Okay this is no big deal. Camps are important, but it does take an additional toll on your PTO /vacation. But some people said you may have to attend multiple camps. 
    • I haven't heard this in a while, but I use to hear you would have to buy the assigner's uniform from the assigner. You couldn't go to Ump-Attire.com and just get what you needed on your own. And the prices were not competitive.
    • I was speaking to a friend about groups he belonged to  and I might consider becoming part of. He told me  (at that time) that until you get "in" with a certain group he worked with you may actually end up losing money working because of a pay to play system. While I'm not doing it exclusively for the money, I'm not losing money on the deal. 
  • People get tired of being treated like crap. There was an up and coming umpire in our organization, he was was going to be on the fast track to wherever he wanted to take his umpiring career. I personally was very impressed by him. He was quickly working HS games and doing excellent. But walked away from it all. He was involved in a MC (at the plate, out, EJ, no run, if I recall correctly) call at the Bronco level. A S#!+storm erupted on the field and then came multiple ejections parents on the field . While I was not there for the event, by all accounts, including the league's initial comments to our assigner, he made the right call. ... The league ended up changing its mind and ended up changing the rule (ex post facto anyone???) and throwing the umpire under the bus. That was his last game called and loss of a great umpiring prospect. 
    • Thing's like this have to stop. I've been followed to my car by irate parents multiple times. Threatened and things like that. These behaviors need to stop. 
    • Think of all the things you could be doing Saturday or Sunday morning. Even checking off items on my wife's never ending to-do list is preferable to many days on youth baseball fields. 
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I am going to broach one of those “dangerous” subjects ... I am going to try to be sensitive about it but no matter what I say, I can just about guarantee it is going to go south.  However, I feel it needs to be said and I hope the discussion can stay on the rails.

This may be more prevalent in softball than baseball, but (around here) there is a huge push for diversity in our ranks.  I am all in favor of an inclusive environment (part of what I do for a living, we could talk for hours about the difference between diversity and inclusion), however it has become a dominating factor for some umpires ... we have a few umpires who were fast-tracked due to their physical characteristics.  I understand that is the world we live in; my issue is that it was done to their detriment so that others could pat themselves on the back.

Two particular instances that I am thinking of with two different, but equally bad, outcomes ...

In one case, the umpire was “fast tracked” and given assignments well above the umpire’s comfort level.  After about a year and a half, the umpire quit umpiring.  The umpire felt that there was not adequate training and that the umpire was not properly prepared ... in short, leadership’s effort to say “look at us and how woke we are” led to an umpire feeling thrown to the wolves.

The second case was very similar, but the umpire went the other direction ... embracing the assignments as “earned” and allowing the status to affect the umpire’s demeanor and ego.  This umpire still umpires and is getting premiere assignments, but neither coaches nor umpires enjoy working with the umpire.  Plate meetings last almost 10 minutes as this umpire explains everything this umpire knows ... and that is when the umpire is the BU.  This umpire is a mid-level umpire and has potential, but the umpire gets in the umpire’s own way most of the time.  I experienced this umpire taking a review/critique from a very respected and experienced umpire, and then walking away and proceeding to tell me all the things that were not right about what was said during that assessment.

Not only does this send the wrong message to other umpires, it sent the wrong message to those umpires.

 

 

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4 hours ago, Umpire in Chief said:
    • Think of all the things you could be doing Saturday or Sunday morning. Even checking off items on my wife's never ending to-do list is preferable to many days on youth baseball fields. 

This really sums up umpiring in my local area for high school and most specifically, summer ball.  A lot of guys including myself have no desire to advance to a level beyond where we are (its not that we are lazy or don't care its an issue of balancing life, full time work, other commitments, etc.) and have been happier with a reduced schedule and enjoying the weekends.

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4 hours ago, Umpire in Chief said:

 

  • Pay to play  systems - I've heard this from multiple guys in different areas of the country. . 
    • You have to go to their camps annually. - Okay this is no big deal. Camps are important, but it does take an additional toll on your PTO /vacation. But some people said you may have to attend multiple camps. 
    • I haven't heard this in a while, but I use to hear you would have to buy the assigner's uniform from the assigner. You couldn't go to Ump-Attire.com and just get what you needed on your own. And the prices were not competitive.
    • I was speaking to a friend about groups he belonged to  and I might consider becoming part of. He told me  (at that time) that until you get "in" with a certain group he worked with you may actually end up losing money working because of a pay to play system. While I'm not doing it exclusively for the money, I'm not losing money on the deal. 

I joined the wrestling officials association two years ago, I was speaking with one of the younger veterans, by this I mean mid 30’s but has been officiating wrestling for about 15 years now. He’s one of our top officials in the state. He explained fighting the “Good ol’ Boy” system among the wrestling officials. It took him 8 years to get assigned a varsity match. My point being, one of the problems he pointed out to me was a Pay to Play system of types. In wrestling JV usually competes at 5-5:30. Varsity at 7. Back when he started on a JV officials first match, it was required that the Varsity official would attend the JV portion and evaluate the new guy. Which sounds like a very effective system, other than the other requirement “expectation” was that the JV guy would give his check for the night to the Varsity guy!! That’s complete bogus. That means that after buy $50 pants, a $30 shirt, $40 for all black shoes $35 in dues and $25 dollars in other equipment, (whistle, wrist bands, flip disk, etc.) the JV guys still wouldn’t even be able to start to get back to the black after his first day on the job! Needless to say, as my mentor has worked his way up, he’s put a stop to this. But I mean, how much more determent does a person need? 

 

The “Good ol’ Boy” is deep in my state. I’m not trying to throw anybody under the bus here, but this year, our Assigner put himself behind the plate in a state playoff game in which the school he teaches at was competing. I’m not accusing him of anything, especially because his school got shut out, but if that doesn’t tell you how backwards things are then I don’t know what will. 

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The OP question should be.

Why did it take an NFL guy to purchase a total set of equipment for the kid in Colorado.

Indentured servitude and attitudes. That will not work anymore. Or just keep helping with losing potential umpires. The business deal says it takes 10,000 hours to master your craft. That is at the most 5 years of work and if you are working 60+ hour weeks, now you are down to 2 1/2  years. You are not going to let them play indentured servitude on you forever in business. Why in umpiring? 

Everyone is also out working their humongous schedule. No one is cutting way back to mentor/train/scout/observe the new guys anymore.

There are many of those younger (not necessarily age) involved who refuse to wait till the older (not necessarily age) die anymore, just like they won't wait in the work environment forever anymore. Gates did not line up and wait long, Buffett did not line up and wait long. McSherry did not wait long, Montague did not wait long, nor Hoberg. Yes some did have to wait longer, but that was not for an advocation, it was for a vocation. Nobody wants to be a middle school roster filler forever, unless it is told to them 'very quickly upfront' that they just don't posses the goods, and if they stay, that is the best it will get. At least they have a choice at this point and can make their decision.

And every article i have read, pretty much anywhere, says abuse from """"coaches"""""and parents. Note that first word, not so much the second word. At the amateur player level that needs to stop pronto. Get those coaches off the field that want to play that screaming, yelling , cheapshoting, get help, all i want to do is ask a question guys off the field. Tell them to go work pro ball where that is more acceptable to 'try and do', test the umpire (i did not say it would work). And get those state reps out of the office during the regular season not just at the State Tournament where all the coaches know they will get lit up for poor deportment.

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16 hours ago, The Short Umpire said:

.Which sounds like a very effective system, other than the other requirement “expectation” was that the JV guy would give his check for the night to the Varsity guy!!

WHAT?!?:!?!?!?!?! That is the most horrendous thing I've ever heard in this area of discussion. What kind of shakedown was this and how long did it go on? Sounds like protection money. Nice little officiating career you've got started there, sure would be shame if anything happened to it.

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I read that article ...almost didn’t finish it since the first thing I got out of it was “You’re fat, don’t bother.”

Just like “You’re old, don’t bother going to umpire school to try to become a pro umpire.”

Some forms of discrimination are still allowable.

 

So that I’m not sounding completely negative, there is some good general information in that article on being a better umpire in general.

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