Pitching Change

[HenryS]

Top of the third inning, same pitcher comes out and tosses 8 warm up pitches.   Suddenly the manager wants to change pitchers.  His pitcher is at 50 pitches and if he throws again, he won't be eligible to pitch in Monday's game.   I disallowed the change and we got into an argument that went to our DA for resolution.  My position was that when the kid threw a wamup pitch he became the "pitcher of record" and must face a batter, throwing at least one pitch before the pitcher could be changed.  The game was held up waiting resolution.

Suppose the change is allowed, another kid comes out to pitch, throws another 9 warm up pitches, and then the manager wants yet another pitching change.  This is dancing on the edge of making a mockery of the game.   Notwithstanding, I can't find a reference for this in the current Little League rule book.

[Aging_Arbiter]

Based on the pitching restrictions that you are referring to, I'm assuming you are talking little league.  without the chart handy, I'm not sure what level reflects 50 pitches= Monday, based on when this happened.  None the less, I'm pretty sure the "must face a batter" comment was meant to be until that at bat is complete by out , ending an inning or reaching base, was covered by the first batter he faces......not each inning. With intermediate and above, where the "must face a batter" comes into question at times is when a player is removed from the mound, and used at another position and then returning to the game (without ever having been removed from the game). If recalled to the mound, they "must face a batter" (again) before being substituted for on the mound.

I'm at work without my LGR, but I'm sure some will provide rule cites......

UPDATE - I found it in the RIM.  It indicates that they must pitch to the first batter.............it does NOT say "each inning".

3.05 -

(a) The pitcher named in the batting order handed to the umpire-in-chief, as provided in Rules 4.01 (a) and 4.01 (b) shall pitch to the first batter or any substitute batter until such batter or any substitute batter is put out or reaches first base, unless the pitcher sustains injury or illness, which in the judgment of the umpire-in-chief, incapacitates the pitcher from further play as pitcher.

(b) If the pitcher is replaced, the substitute pitcher shall pitch to the batter then at bat, or any substitute batter, until such batter is put out or reaches first base, or until the offensive team is put out, unless the substitute pitcher sustains injury or illness, which in the judgment of the umpire-in-chief, incapacitates the pitcher from further play as a pitcher.

[noumpere]

12 minutes ago, HenryS said:

Top of the third inning, same pitcher comes out and tosses 8 warm up pitches.   Suddenly the manager wants to change pitchers.  His pitcher is at 50 pitches and if he throws again, he won't be eligible to pitch in Monday's game.   I disallowed the change and we got into an argument that went to our DA for resolution.  My position was that when the kid threw a wamup pitch he became the "pitcher of record" and must face a batter, throwing at least one pitch before the pitcher could be changed.  The game was held up waiting resolution.

Suppose the change is allowed, another kid comes out to pitch, throws another 9 warm up pitches, and then the manager wants yet another pitching change.  This is dancing on the edge of making a mockery of the game.   Notwithstanding, I can't find a reference for this in the current Little League rule book.

I am assuming that LL does NOT have the OBR restriction that "a pitcher who crosses the foul line must face a batter" restriction.  In that case, the first pitcher met this requirement last inning.  It doesn't carry over inning to inning.

Since this pitcher is new, he must face a batter (absent injury, etc -- I assume).

If LL HAS the OBR restriction, then, yes, he must face a batter, but this is not relevant.

[stkjock]

I'm fairly sure there's  reference in the LL rule book on this.  Once he throws a warm up he must face a batter IIRC.  Let me see if I can find the reference. 

[stkjock]

delete - bad info

Edited July 22, 2019 by stkjock

[Aging_Arbiter]

19 minutes ago, Aging_Arbiter said:

UPDATE - I found it in the RIM.  It indicates that they must pitch to the first batter.............it does NOT say "each inning".

3.05 -

(a) The pitcher named in the batting order handed to the umpire-in-chief, as provided in Rules 4.01 (a) and 4.01 (b) shall pitch to the first batter or any substitute batter until such batter or any substitute batter is put out or reaches first base, unless the pitcher sustains injury or illness, which in the judgment of the umpire-in-chief, incapacitates the pitcher from further play as pitcher.

(b) If the pitcher is replaced, the substitute pitcher shall pitch to the batter then at bat, or any substitute batter, until such batter is put out or reaches first base, or until the offensive team is put out, unless the substitute pitcher sustains injury or illness, which in the judgment of the umpire-in-chief, incapacitates the pitcher from further play as a pitcher.

 

[Mister B]

Not looking at the Green Book, but I was always taught, if he throws a warmup, he must face at least one batter. 

Now, if the pitcher was ineligible and throws a warmup pitch, we fix the problem and play on if it's caught before pitching to a batter. 

[noumpere]

19 minutes ago, stkjock said:

From the 2018 Little League Make The Right Call:  Rule 3.08(a)(1) Situation:  As the defense takes the field in the top of the fifth inning; the shortstop (#18), picks up the ball, steps on the pitcher’s plate and delivers a pitch to the catcher. The pitcher of record is still in the dugout talking with his manager.:

 

 

That's not the OP.  The OP has THE SAME pitcher coming back out; your play has A NEW pitcher (well F6) coming out

[stkjock]

delete - bad info

Edited July 22, 2019 by stkjock

[Jimurray]

6 minutes ago, stkjock said:

principle is the same, throws a warm up, must face a batter. 

Not in LL. Any pitcher who has faced one batter has complied with the rule. Throwing warmups in later innings does not require them to face another batter. In the OP the manager could replace his pitcher. Perhaps @HenryS could tell us how the argument protest was resolved. The game should have been held up until the protesting manager was given a valid ruling from District/Region/WP.

[noumpere]

11 minutes ago, stkjock said:

principle is the same, throws a warm up, must face a batter. 

Not true, and wasn't true in OBR or NCAA before the "returning pitcher crossing the foul line" rule change.  Not true in FED.

[stkjock]

ok I sit corrected.  sorry for the bad into, trying to do too many things at once.  going to delete above reply. 

[Senor Azul]

I just want to clarify that the bad info that Mr. stkjock posted was a post of mine from an old thread and that I did not use it to answer the question in this thread—he did.

Considering the time of the year this game took place I would have to say that Little League tournament rules and guidelines would apply—not regular season pitching rules. Here are the applicable rules--

e. Pitchers league age 14 and under must adhere to the following rest requirements:

• If a player pitches 66 or more pitches in a day, four (4) calendar days of rest must be observed.

• If a player pitches 51-65 pitches in a day, three (3) calendar days of rest must be observed.

 • If a player pitches 36-50 pitches in a day, two (2) calendar days of rest must be observed.

EXCEPTION: If a pitcher reaches a day(s) of rest threshold while facing a batter, the pitcher may continue to pitch until any one of the following conditions occurs: (1) That batter reaches base; (2) That batter is retired; (3) The third out is made to complete the half-inning or the game. The pitcher will only be required to observe the calendar day(s) of rest for the threshold he/she reached during that at-bat, provided that pitcher is removed or the game is completed before delivering a pitch to another batter.

[HenryS]

There seem to be several answers that are dancing around the issue.   We're in the third or fourth inning, the same kid who was pitching comes out to continue, and his manager suddenly realizes the kid is at 50 pitches and he wants to pull him so he can use him to pitch Monday.   Game day was Friday.  2 days rest required.  If he throws another pitch, he becomes ineligible on Monday.

@Jimurray, correct, tournament rules were in effect.   The game was held up.  Tournament officials called their district DA who says he called WR and they said the pitching change was ok.  We played on, however, I still don't agree.   I'm in the camp where he warmed up and now has to throw a pitch to the next batter.

[Jimurray]

3 minutes ago, HenryS said:

There seem to be several answers that are dancing around the issue.   We're in the third or fourth inning, the same kid who was pitching comes out to continue, and his manager suddenly realizes the kid is at 50 pitches and he wants to pull him so he can use him to pitch Monday.   Game day was Friday.  2 days rest required.  If he throws another pitch, he becomes ineligible on Monday.

@Jimurray, correct, tournament rules were in effect.   The game was held up.  Tournament officials called their district DA who says he called WR and they said the pitching change was ok.  We played on, however, I still don't agree.   I'm in the camp where he warmed up and now has to throw a pitch to the next batter.

You're in the wrong camp. MLB/OBR did not have any requirement in the past other than what LL had. But MLB managers were taking advantage of having the outgoing pitcher warm up to give the relief pitcher more time and than making the change. That was perfectly legal until MLB/OBR changed their rule about the pitcher crossing the foul line. LL did not change anything so a LL pitcher crossing the foul line or throwing warmups does not require him to face another batter if he complied with the LL rule of facing the first batter he saw. 

[HenryS]

Thanks @Jimurray.   But seems with LL not changing the rule, they are open to exactly what you cited - a stream of kids warming up but the manager having no intention of letting them face a batter.   Notwithstanding, I'm glad we got it right before continuing the game.

[Jimurray]

3 minutes ago, HenryS said:

Thanks @Jimurray.   But seems with LL not changing the rule, they are open to exactly what you cited - a stream of kids warming up but the manager having no intention of letting them face a batter.   Notwithstanding, I'm glad we got it right before continuing the game.

I doubt that that would become a problem LL would have to address. 

[Senor Azul]

Mr. Jimurray, the rule change you mentioned for OBR took place in the 2012 season (rule 3.05d is now rule 5.10i)

The Official Playing Rules Committee made the following changes that will be in effect for the 2012 season:

• Added new Rule 3.05(d) to prohibit a manager from sending his current pitcher to the mound to warm-up at the start of an inning with no intention of having him pitch to the first batter of the inning.

[noumpere]

14 hours ago, HenryS said:

Thanks @Jimurray.   But seems with LL not changing the rule, they are open to exactly what you cited - a stream of kids warming up but the manager having no intention of letting them face a batter.   Notwithstanding, I'm glad we got it right before continuing the game.

In MLB, the pitchers would be warming up in the bullpen.  Having the starter go back to the mound gave the relievers a couple of extra minutes to get loose in the pen, and then 8 warmups on the mound.

 

Once the reliever takes the mound (and throws a warmup, or is announced, etc -- these specifics vary by code / level), then that NEW pitcher must face a batter.  You wouldn't have this "stream of kids" you mentioned (nor did they have it in MLB).

[Rich Ives]

20 hours ago, HenryS said:

Thanks @Jimurray.   But seems with LL not changing the rule, they are open to exactly what you cited - a stream of kids warming up but the manager having no intention of letting them face a batter.   Notwithstanding, I'm glad we got it right before continuing the game.

No. Once the new pitcher is warming up he must pitch to one batter.

 

[HenryS]

Well @Rich Ives,  this is Little League and Williamsport rules it was ok. 

[Jimurray]

1 hour ago, HenryS said:

Well @Rich Ives,  this is Little League and Williamsport rules it was ok. 

@Rich Ives was addressing your concern, as did @noumpere of a "stream of kids". Your OP did not have a "new" pitcher. LL ruled it OK that that pitcher could be replaced even after he warmed up because he was not a new pitcher.