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ArchAngel72

Heh..lessons to be learned sharing for others

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So last night 11u District Playoff game

bases loaded less than 2 outs ( I think it was 0 but cannot recall) 

infield is playing in as the score is tight like 9-11 Defense is losing

ground ball to the 2nd baseman it takes a bad hop and runs up his body and off his hip. skips off him and to his right slightly where it hits R1 in the calf I was in C and clearly observe all of this ,as I was expecting a throw to 1st  ( 2 man crew fyi ).  Now I stop plant and await whats to come, unfortunately, my partner at PU jumps out and calls Dead Ball, Dead ball Runner is out.  

Sigh.. If only.  Both coaches jump out and are calling time.  He calls time and I approach him, they are telling us the ball hit the fielder that makes the runner not out when it hits him.  I wave them both off.  Approach him.

"Did you see it hit the fielder,  "Yep" Ok I did too, therefor the runner behind him is safe he cannot be out as it hit him after it deflected off the fielder.  We discuss it a few more seconds and unfortunately he did not know that part of the rule.

So we kept the runner on 2nd and left the other runners where they were.

Based on our judgement the ball hitting the runner nearly died and was close to the 2nd baseman but not close enough for him to have thrown anyone out, Nor would the runner at 3rd have tried to run based on that assessment.

So  anyway Its funny we actually got this one in class when I was in Bristol and Doc was like "remember this one cause it will happen" or something like that.  Anyway yeah, never would see that probably anywhere else but LL  .. LOL

Edit:

Oh from my recollection. proper thing is Ball is live ( so long as runner did not "Boot" it ie. kick it on purpose) and you play on as if nothing happened.  I do believe if the fielder fields it he could still throw out that runner or any other runner..

 

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The only "judgement"  required here is that the runner did not intentionally interfere with the ball, which almost never happens.  Otherwise what happens happens when a runner is hit by a deflected ball.

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36 minutes ago, ArchAngel72 said:

ground ball to the 2nd baseman it takes a bad hop and runs up his body and off his hip. skips off him and to his right slightly where it hits R1 in the calf I was in C and clearly observe all of this ,as I was expecting a throw to 1st  ( 2 man crew fyi ).  Now I stop plant and await whats to come,

If you would have aggressively signaled safe with a verbal, "That's nothing!" maybe your partner wouldn't have come out with his call.

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1 hour ago, johnpatrick said:

The only "judgement"  required here is that the runner did not intentionally interfere with the ball, which almost never happens.  Otherwise what happens happens when a runner is hit by a deflected ball.

Quote

 

Edit:

Oh from my recollection. proper thing is Ball is live ( so long as runner did not "Boot" it ie. kick it on purpose) and you play on as if nothing happened.  I do believe if the fielder fields it he could still throw out that runner or any other runner..

 

 

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52 minutes ago, noumpere said:

If you would have aggressively signaled safe with a verbal, "That's nothing!" maybe your partner wouldn't have come out with his call.

 

Ok I find that a bit odd..  I have never heard anyone signal "THAT WAS NOTHING"  on the field.. 

The proper thing to me is to observe like nothing happened  IE you make no call.

I got pissed at myself a week ago because I "bird dogged" a situation at 1st .  throw from short and the 1st baseman stepped off early, however the BR lolly gagged it and I stood there.. no call until the 1st baseman turned and looked at me cause I never said out. I shrugged my shoulders and put my hands out lightly at my side..  He then realized he was off the base when he caught it and tagged the base.  The BR had just stuck it in high gear and was a step short. 

I banged him out at that point but my proper thing to do should have been to stand there silent not doing anything .. my shrug and hands bird dogged the 1st baseman to his mistake and I felt like an ass after for doing so.. sigh anyway.. my point is "thats nothing" seems to over state and or could be misconstrued as something else.. It just seems odd to me.

 

 

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58 minutes ago, noumpere said:

If you would have aggressively signaled safe with a verbal, "That's nothing!" maybe your partner wouldn't have come out with his call.

thinking on this would a better thing to say is "LIVE BALL"

 

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Just now, johnpatrick said:

It is, however, the proper mechanic.

proper mechanic to say  "That's Nothing"

 

please show me where..

 

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22 minutes ago, ArchAngel72 said:

proper mechanic to say  "That's Nothing"

 

please show me where..

 

Five or six posts above this one.  ;)

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30 minutes ago, ArchAngel72 said:

proper mechanic to say  "That's Nothing"

 

please show me where..

 

have you ever been to an official "umpires clinic" before? Something  you paid for, and had college and pro umpires as instructors? I can't cite where it says that the mechanic mentioned is proper, but trust me, .... they are correct ....  safe sign w/ a verbal THAT'S NOTHING is in fact correct!

You'd do the same thing if there's something on the base paths that's close to obstruction or interference between fielders and runners ...

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34 minutes ago, Thunderheads said:

have you ever been to an official "umpires clinic" before? Something  you paid for, and had college and pro umpires as instructors? I can't cite where it says that the mechanic mentioned is proper, but trust me, .... they are correct ....  safe sign w/ a verbal THAT'S NOTHING is in fact correct!

You'd do the same thing if there's something on the base paths that's close to obstruction or interference between fielders and runners ...

Like this: 

I guess that was not a topic that interested @ArchAngel72.but actually it's not "nothing", it's "nothin":)

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43 minutes ago, Thunderheads said:

have you ever been to an official "umpires clinic" before? Something  you paid for, and had college and pro umpires as instructors? I can't cite where it says that the mechanic mentioned is proper, but trust me, .... they are correct ....  safe sign w/ a verbal THAT'S NOTHING is in fact correct!

You'd do the same thing if there's something on the base paths that's close to obstruction or interference between fielders and runners ...

In fact, there are a ton of times a "that's nothing" with a safe signal is the proper mechanic.  A few examples:

- When a batted ball almost hits a runner, but just misses him
- When F2 blocks a pitch and gets tangled up with the batter who is legally in the box
- When there is an overthrow and a runner and fielder get tangled and immediately untangled
- When a base coach unintentionally gets hit with a throw

Essentially, you would use it when something odd or unusual happens that isn't an infraction, and you need the coaches to know that you saw it and rendered a judgment on it.

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1 hour ago, ArchAngel72 said:

Ok I find that a bit odd..  I have never heard anyone signal "THAT WAS NOTHING"  on the field.. 

...

@ArchAngel72 , in my experience a "that's nothing" call from a partner tells me he's very experienced.  It means that not only did he see the action, but processed it and came to the conclusion that there was no infraction AND understood in the moment that others might think otherwise and that his "no infraction" judgment needs to be communicated accordingly.  I considered it an important milestone in my own development when I signaled my first "that's nothing" on the field.  I am working hard to make it a more natural part of my game for sure.  FWIW.

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1 hour ago, Thunderheads said:

have you ever been to an official "umpires clinic" before? Something  you paid for, and had college and pro umpires as instructors? I can't cite where it says that the mechanic mentioned is proper, but trust me, .... they are correct ....  safe sign w/ a verbal THAT'S NOTHING is in fact correct!

You'd do the same thing if there's something on the base paths that's close to obstruction or interference between fielders and runners ...

LL in Bristol is all. so far.. but Im getting edumacated here too.

 

So.. Ok see learning every day.  Seemed odd to me because I had never seen nor heard it and "Live Ball" to me seemed like a much wiser choice of words for that situation.. I'm sure someone else sees that logic. But "thats nothing" on a collison makes sense to me there.

 

Okies mental notes being made.

 

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5 minutes ago, ArchAngel72 said:

LL in Bristol is all. so far.. but Im getting edumacated here too.

 

So.. Ok see learning every day.  Seemed odd to me because I had never seen nor heard it and "Live Ball" to me seemed like a much wiser choice of words for that situation.. I'm sure someone else sees that logic. But "thats nothing" on a collison makes sense to me there.

 

Okies mental notes being made.

 

If they gave you a RIM it uses that phrase for a collision with no fault. 

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4 minutes ago, ArchAngel72 said:

LL in Bristol is all. so far.. but Im getting edumacated here too.

 

So.. Ok see learning every day.  Seemed odd to me because I had never seen nor heard it and "Live Ball" to me seemed like a much wiser choice of words for that situation.. I'm sure someone else sees that logic. But "thats nothing" on a collison makes sense to me there.

 

Okies mental notes being made.

 

You'll CONSTANTLY learn!! :D    

You don't announce live or dead ball ... those are states of play .... the ball is live until you say "TIME" ;) then the play becomes a dead ball situation ...   The term "dead ball" (if I'm not mistaken) is only used on softball, not in baseball

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3 minutes ago, Thunderheads said:

You'll CONSTANTLY learn!! :D    

You don't announce live or dead ball ... those are states of play .... the ball is live until you say "TIME" ;) then the play becomes a dead ball situation ...   The term "dead ball" (if I'm not mistaken) is only used on softball, not in baseball

So when a LL hitter gets plunked dead ball should not be used?

I always 1 make sure they are OK.. sometimes they are not and need a minute or 4.. 

Then if there is action like a runner missed it and he took off I call dead ball batter was hit.

 

Ugh I heard the dreadful " Hit him in the box" on a foul the other day..  was nearly laughing

recalling the story about one of the guys at bristol subbed in for a Softball game that the PU was sick or something like that.  He did make the call on a foul ball that hit the batter while she was in the batters box

"Foul, hit her in the box"..

yep silence.. then laughter.. 

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1 minute ago, ArchAngel72 said:

So when a LL hitter gets plunked dead ball should not be used?

I always 1 make sure they are OK.. sometimes they are not and need a minute or 4.. 

Then if there is action like a runner missed it and he took off I call dead ball batter was hit.

 

Ugh I heard the dreadful " Hit him in the box" on a foul the other day..  was nearly laughing

recalling the story about one of the guys at bristol subbed in for a Softball game that the PU was sick or something like that.  He did make the call on a foul ball that hit the batter while she was in the batters box

"Foul, hit her in the box"..

yep silence.. then laughter.. 

NO .... when you have a hit by pitch, it's up with both hands and "TIME!!!" 

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3 hours ago, Thunderheads said:

NO .... when you have a hit by pitch, it's up with both hands and "TIME!!!" 

But why are you calling "time"?  The ball is already dead.  :stir:HD::cheers:

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9 hours ago, Thunderheads said:

have you ever been to an official "umpires clinic" before? Something  you paid for, and had college and pro umpires as instructors? I can't cite where it says that the mechanic mentioned is proper, but trust me, .... they are correct ....  safe sign w/ a verbal THAT'S NOTHING is in fact correct!

You'd do the same thing if there's something on the base paths that's close to obstruction or interference between fielders and runners ...

 

This is what bothers me with this stuff. I’m not saying it’s wrong ... I’m just saying if it is a proper mechanic, why is it not in any manuals?  This logic is not much different than an ancient umpire giving a new umpire bad direction because that’s the way he always did it.  It SHOULD be in a manual.

Sorry guys, not trying to cause any great debates ... I just never was a “do it because the cool kids do” kind of guy.  I like things to be laid out the way they should be.

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30 minutes ago, The Man in Blue said:

 

This is what bothers me with this stuff. I’m not saying it’s wrong ... I’m just saying if it is a proper mechanic, why is it not in any manuals?  This logic is not much different than an ancient umpire giving a new umpire bad direction because that’s the way he always did it.  It SHOULD be in a manual.

Sorry guys, not trying to cause any great debates ... I just never was a “do it because the cool kids do” kind of guy.  I like things to be laid out the way they should be.

Do you know what the RIM is? Bristol should have used it. “That’s nothing” (nothin) is in there. 

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We don’t have actual LL around here, so no.  I get that it is a LL mechanics manual, but I’m not familiar with it.

For the record, I use the safe call (or a point) on stuff like that, sometimes with a verbalization, sometimes not.  I’ve never used “That’s nothing” though ... “No touch” or “It’s past the fielder” ... something that communicates what I actually saw.

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This is from J/R (emphasis added):

The "safe" signal (both arms extended out to the sides, parallel to the ground) with
appropriate voice is sometimes given to indicate that
(1) an attempt to tag a runner between bases has failed (e.g., rundown1, voice- "no tag!").
(2) a batted, thrown, or pitched ball has struck a barrier but has not become dead due
to lodging, entering DBT, or fan interference (no voice).
(3) an appeal has been denied (voice- "safe" or "he's OK").
(4) interference or obstruction has been a possibility, but does not occur, or contact is
incidental: e.g., batted ball almost strikes a runner, fielder deflects a batted ball
into a runner, runner in a rundown goes out of his way to contact a fielder who is
not protected (voice in these cases- "that's nothing!").

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