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Guest Coach Bill

Picking from Windup (OBR)

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Guest Coach Bill

A kid recently showed me his pickoff moves from the stretch and they were lethal. Can y'all clarify what constitutes stepping straight to a base to pick from the wind up and what might trigger a balk call other than misinformed umpiring? Also umps, how would you react to a coach clarifying ahead of time if the ump is clear that we can pick off from the windup so we don't lose the out we might easily get. How might a coach properly ask to not offend?  

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Guest Coach Bill
1 minute ago, Guest Coach Bill said:

A kid recently showed me his pickoff moves from the stretch and they were lethal. Can y'all clarify what constitutes stepping straight to a base to pick from the wind up and what might trigger a balk call other than misinformed umpiring? Also umps, how would you react to a coach clarifying ahead of time if the ump is clear that we can pick off from the windup so we don't lose the out we might easily get. How might a coach properly ask to not offend?  

I just re-read that - I meant his pick off moves from the windup.

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3 minutes ago, Guest Coach Bill said:

Also umps, how would you react to a coach clarifying ahead of time if the ump is clear that we can pick off from the windup so we don't lose the out we might easily get. How might a coach properly ask to not offend?  

How would I react?  Poorly.

How might you ask?  Not at all.

I'm not just being snarky with that - although I won't lie, it's in my wheelhouse, so that element's gonna be there, anyway.  Since I'm the first one here for this, I speak only for HokieUmp, LLC on this.  But my thought is:  I'm not gonna play "Gotcha!" right before the game about rules - either at the plate meeting, or somewhere beforehand.  Because I've been in enough conversations with coaches to know either they're trying to get over OR they're looking to trip me up OR they misunderstand or misinterpret what I've said, then get mad at *me* OR they end up *so* insistent they're right that they don't want to hear my response.

So I would likely shut the convo down before it got too far, and say some form of "make the play on the field, and we'll see where it goes from there."

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The requirements are the same from the windup as they are from the set.  The pitcher must step directly to the base without making a movement associated with a pitch.  So with a RH pitcher and R1, the pitcher must step towards first base (more towards first than home or second) with his left foot without making any motion associated with winding up.

I wouldn't take any offense if a coach wants to ask me if picking from the windup is legal.  Something along the lines of, "I just want to make sure we're on the same page that today's game is being played under OBR which means picking off from the windup is legal.  Is that your understanding as well?"

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21 minutes ago, grayhawk said:

The requirements are the same from the windup as they are from the set.  The pitcher must step directly to the base without making a movement associated with a pitch.  So with a RH pitcher and R1, the pitcher must step towards first base (more towards first than home or second) with his left foot without making any motion associated with winding up.

This, with the addition that if the move is associated *both* with the wind-up and the pick-off, it's still legal.  So (with R1), LH F1 could go to the balance point and still throw to first or pitch; RH F1 could only pitch if he goes to the balance point.  And, note that if LH F1 steps back before going to the balance point, he's committed to pitch and can't pick.    And if the hands (of either) go rocking back, it's (likely) a motion to pitch. etc.

I've seen hundreds of moves / posts described with words similar to " showed me his pickoff moves from the stretch and they were lethal."  In the bvast majority of the times, the moves were illegal.

 

I do agree that I would answer a basic "is a pickoff attempt from the wind up legal" question -- but I won't get into the specifics of the pitcher's move until I've seen it.

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Guest Coach Bill
33 minutes ago, HokieUmp said:

How would I react?  Poorly.

How might you ask?  Not at all.

I'm not just being snarky with that - although I won't lie, it's in my wheelhouse, so that element's gonna be there, anyway.  Since I'm the first one here for this, I speak only for HokieUmp, LLC on this.  But my thought is:  I'm not gonna play "Gotcha!" right before the game about rules - either at the plate meeting, or somewhere beforehand.  Because I've been in enough conversations with coaches to know either they're trying to get over OR they're looking to trip me up OR they misunderstand or misinterpret what I've said, then get mad at *me* OR they end up *so* insistent they're right that they don't want to hear my response.

So I would likely shut the convo down before it got too far, and say some form of "make the play on the field, and we'll see where it goes from there."

Thanks for the input. I don't feel it's snarky - I just know I would be so angry for an ump to call a balk that is not - and kill the play.  Unfortunately - so many don't know the rules as well as you do. I think picking from a windup is one of the most misunderstood - so was just trying to kind of warn them it was coming and "remind" them it's legal even though it doesn't look right. 

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Guest Coach Bill
11 minutes ago, noumpere said:

This, with the addition that if the move is associated *both* with the wind-up and the pick-off, it's still legal.  So (with R1), LH F1 could go to the balance point and still throw to first or pitch; RH F1 could only pitch if he goes to the balance point.  And, note that if LH F1 steps back before going to the balance point, he's committed to pitch and can't pick.    And if the hands (of either) go rocking back, it's (likely) a motion to pitch. etc.

I've seen hundreds of moves / posts described with words similar to " showed me his pickoff moves from the stretch and they were lethal."  In the bvast majority of the times, the moves were illegal.

 

I do agree that I would answer a basic "is a pickoff attempt from the wind up legal" question -- but I won't get into the specifics of the pitcher's move until I've seen it.

This helps a ton. I think the kids move could be even better understanding the balance point issue. I think I'll lean toward simply clarifying the OBR rule with them - to kind of give them a warning it's coming so they don't freak out when everyone is yelling balk. 

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Guest Coach Bill

Follow up question- I imagine the pitcher could also do an inside move towards second and also not throw. Am I correct? 

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9 minutes ago, Guest Coach Bill said:

Follow up question- I imagine the pitcher could also do an inside move towards second and also not throw. Am I correct? 

I don't see how that would be physically possible in a normal windup stance.  If he's winding up with the pivot foot parallel to the rubber (as allowed in OBR), then I suppose it's possible but that would likely erase the advantage you are trying to gain.  But if he tried it with his pivot foot perpendicular to the rubber and moved the pivot foot in the process, I'm balking it for making a motion associated with a pitch and not delivering.

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9 hours ago, Guest Coach Bill said:

Follow up question- I imagine the pitcher could also do an inside move towards second and also not throw. Am I correct? 

The rules don't differentiate between "inside move" and "outside move," so if the move to second is otherwise legal ...

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Guest Coach Bill
18 hours ago, grayhawk said:

I don't see how that would be physically possible in a normal windup stance.  If he's winding up with the pivot foot parallel to the rubber (as allowed in OBR), then I suppose it's possible but that would likely erase the advantage you are trying to gain.  But if he tried it with his pivot foot perpendicular to the rubber and moved the pivot foot in the process, I'm balking it for making a motion associated with a pitch and not delivering.

I kind of get that but I also saw that the rule doesn't differentiate between inside move or outside move. I can see not going to first, as is not allowed even from a stretch, but second would seemingly be the same move. I know it's pressing the envelope - and I'd guess it would be a gamble. The inside move would be trying to get them simply to jump on movement - thinking they have free reign. Let me ask you this - if he did it in a way you thought was legal - but didn't throw it - (meaning sees the runner took off to third), would that be okay with you?  (I'm just trying to play within the rules - even though I know this is one of the most misunderstood)  By the way, I think the windup pick works best to third (as the windup is not uncommon then), but safer at second not knowing what may be called. 

Fun stuff. 

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9 minutes ago, Guest Coach Bill said:

I kind of get that but I also saw that the rule doesn't differentiate between inside move or outside move. I can see not going to first, as is not allowed even from a stretch, but second would seemingly be the same move. I know it's pressing the envelope - and I'd guess it would be a gamble. The inside move would be trying to get them simply to jump on movement - thinking they have free reign. Let me ask you this - if he did it in a way you thought was legal - but didn't throw it - (meaning sees the runner took off to third), would that be okay with you?  (I'm just trying to play within the rules - even though I know this is one of the most misunderstood)  By the way, I think the windup pick works best to third (as the windup is not uncommon then), but safer at second not knowing what may be called. 

Fun stuff. 

Feinting to second base is legal in all codes.  So if the move is otherwise legal, then it's clearly not a balk for the feint itself.

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1 hour ago, Guest Coach Bill said:

I can see not going to first, as is not allowed even from a stretch, but second would seemingly be the same move.

I don't follow this.  To be clear, the lack of understanding might be on this side of the interwebs.

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Guest Coach Bill
16 hours ago, noumpere said:

I don't follow this.  To be clear, the lack of understanding might be on this side of the interwebs.

Trust me - it's confusing to me. Let's say he's a right hander and wants pick to third. Could he not pivot - which he'd have to do to throw to third and is natural- then pick similar to the stretch pick to third staying within his 45.  Clearly- the RHP pitcher can't balance with his toe pointing to third and wheel to first. However, it would seem his standard motion to throw straight to third would be to turn his right foot towards third and throw to third. This is definitely one of the worst described rules especially because it says you can pick to any base. But if you don't separate your hands - raise them above your head, etc. and don't simulate a pitch - it would seem the same balk rules would apply as do from the stretch. 

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Guest Coach Bill

By the way, y'all are very helpful. Thanks so much. 

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31 minutes ago, Guest Coach Bill said:

Trust me - it's confusing to me. Let's say he's a right hander and wants pick to third. Could he not pivot - which he'd have to do to throw to third and is natural- then pick similar to the stretch pick to third staying within his 45.  Clearly- the RHP pitcher can't balance with his toe pointing to third and wheel to first. However, it would seem his standard motion to throw straight to third would be to turn his right foot towards third and throw to third. This is definitely one of the worst described rules especially because it says you can pick to any base. But if you don't separate your hands - raise them above your head, etc. and don't simulate a pitch - it would seem the same balk rules would apply as do from the stretch. 

This is correct, and legal, as described.

 

Most don't pick from the windup either because they think they can't, or because the muscle memory kicks in and they step back with the free foot, or do something with the hands that commits them to pitch.

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Guest Coach Bill
31 minutes ago, noumpere said:

This is correct, and legal, as described.

 

Most don't pick from the windup either because they think they can't, or because the muscle memory kicks in and they step back with the free foot, or do something with the hands that commits them to pitch.

Yes - most don't think they can. The other teams coaches and crowd go completely bonkers. Thanks for clarifying. 

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1 hour ago, Guest Coach Bill said:

By the way, y'all are very helpful. Thanks so much. 

Video would be more helpful

 

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1 hour ago, noumpere said:

This is correct, and legal, as described.

 

Most don't pick from the windup either because they think they can't, or because the muscle memory kicks in and they step back with the free foot, or do something with the hands that commits them to pitch.

And if he is getting ready for HS ball under NFHS picking from wind up ............

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