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ArchAngel72

well I never..

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runner on 2nd  I am PU

 

pitcher tosses an inside pitch, the R batter "matrix's" out of the way and it ticks off the catchers mitt and heads for the backstop. Being in the slot I got a VERY good view of it and I call "BALL"  pretty loud. 

the kid on 2nd takes off to 3rd on the WP and slides in safe.

Immediately the Defensive team is hollering that was a foul ball it tipped his bat ( this is from my right side the 1st base dugout).  I ignore it and am waiting on the catcher to get back in place and get ready for the next pitch.  Out of the corner of my eye I see the runner start to go back to 2nd. 

I stand there waiting and the D teams HC  asks for time.  I step back look at him and give him time ( no one has really come set yet P or C) he walks out and he's stammering Blue that was a foul, can I, what did,"   I say I called ball and I saw it tip the catchers mitt and go to the back stop I never saw it hit the player or the bat nor did I hear it hit the bat. 

DHC  "well I heard" .. ME: WOULD YOU LIKE ME TO APPEAL IT?  him  ah yes can we ask the BU.  Ok   I approach the base umpire."John what did you see?" John, " I saw it hit the mitt and carry to the backstop."  me "Do you think the batter fouled it?  John "NO not at all" ME "that's what I saw too."

I turn "Coach appeal says I called ball and he saw it hit the mitt and carry to the backstop.  It stands."

He goes "What about the guy on 2nd you gonna give him 3rd back?"

I look at John "Did you ask him to go back?"   

John "No, No I never said anything you called Ball" 

Me "Well how did he get there?" 

John " the base coach sent him back".  I'm smiling now cause this is Really odd..

I ask the Base coach "You sent him back?" 

He says "I did not hear what your call was because I saw the ball go by and was hollering for my kid to go."

Me "So you sent him back because?

Base coach " I did not hear what you said, sorry "

Me to John.  "well it was still live and he retreated on his own accord.. He stays on 2nd yes?" 

John "Oh yeah we did not send him back his base coach did."

I announce Runner is on 2nd and that's where he is. We did not ask him to go back the Base coach did.  Thats where he stays.

I look at the defensive coach he shrugs and walks off the field 

2 pitches later he was back on 3rd with another WP

Sigh.. 

Is it me or is it just cause its my 1st yr behind that plate that I am getting a bit of these weird ones?

 

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Gotta love "good" baserunning! 

Two things, I wouldn't go to my partner on this unless I thought I'd missed something. Sounds like you were pretty sure, stick with your call. Second, NEVER ask a coach if they want you to appeal. It will never end up well. If they claim something happened that you didn't see and can't rule out as a possibility, AND you think your partner may have been in a position to see it, that's when you ask them what they have. 

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1 hour ago, Biscuit said:

Gotta love "good" baserunning! 

Two things, I wouldn't go to my partner on this unless I thought I'd missed something. Sounds like you were pretty sure, stick with your call. Second, NEVER ask a coach if they want you to appeal. It will never end up well. If they claim something happened that you didn't see and can't rule out as a possibility, AND you think your partner may have been in a position to see it, that's when you ask them what they have. 

 

I did so in a menacing voice to get my point across that I had made my call and unless he was there to ask me to appeal it GET OFF THE FIELD AND SHUTUP..  

anyway that was my point to him..   Maybe I should have told him something along those lines but more political 

 

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3 hours ago, Biscuit said:

Gotta love "good" baserunning! 

Two things, I wouldn't go to my partner on this unless I thought I'd missed something. Sounds like you were pretty sure, stick with your call. Second, NEVER ask a coach if they want you to appeal. It will never end up well. 

I never have a problem asking for an appeal. In fact, in the youth tourneys around here, most of the time PU brings it up at the plate conference "we want to get the calls right so if you have a question, call time, tell me what you saw and I'll get together with my partner." 

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18 minutes ago, agdz59 said:

I never have a problem asking for an appeal. In fact, in the youth tourneys around here, most of the time PU brings it up at the plate conference "we want to get the calls right so if you have a question, call time, tell me what you saw and I'll get together with my partner." 

I'm not a huge fan of that even, but that's a lot different from asking a coach outright if they want you to appeal to your partner. To each there own though.

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My only criticism is granting time while the play was still in progress.  You said the runner on third started back towards second when the defensive coach asked for time and you granted it.

Probably should have held up the hand (stop sign) and waited till the runner got back to second, returned to third, was tagged out, whatever.  Once the play was over you grant the coach time.

I agree that if you were 100% sure of your call then don't ask for help.

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3 hours ago, agdz59 said:

most of the time PU brings it up at the plate conference "we want to get the calls right so if you have a question, call time, tell me what you saw and I'll get together with my partner." 

That’s gotta end. Not only is that way too much to say at the Plate Meeting, but it’s being said wrong, in a way that will open a Pandora’s Box of Pain and Misery.

  • “we want to get the calls right” – according to coaches, you never will, and some coaches think you’re out to get them, and that you’re lying
  • ”so if you have a question” – don’t give them this possibility; it’s like giving an open jar of paint to a kindergartner and saying, “Now, don’t touch that until we say so”.
  • ”call time” – NO. Coaches and players are to ask for Time. Only an umpire can call Time.
  • ”tell me what you saw” – No to this too. What they saw will nearly always be something different than what the umpires actually saw.
  • ”I’ll get together with my partner” – We (Umpires) are not at their (coaches and other participants) beckon call. The majority of calls that bring a coach out to question do not need or involve another umpire. By mentioning this, you’re giving that coach the fallacy that they can beseech the calling umpire to consult his/her partner and (hopefully, to them) overturn the call or introduce doubt.
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3 hours ago, MadMax said:

That’s gotta end. Not only is that way too much to say at the Plate Meeting, but it’s being said wrong, in a way that will open a Pandora’s Box of Pain and Misery.

  • “we want to get the calls right” – according to coaches, you never will, and some coaches think you’re out to get them, and that you’re lying
  • ”so if you have a question” – don’t give them this possibility; it’s like giving an open jar of paint to a kindergartner and saying, “Now, don’t touch that until we say so”.
  • ”call time” – NO. Coaches and players are to ask for Time. Only an umpire can call Time.
  • ”tell me what you saw” – No to this too. What they saw will nearly always be something different than what the umpires actually saw.
  • ”I’ll get together with my partner” – We (Umpires) are not at their (coaches and other participants) beckon call. The majority of calls that bring a coach out to question do not need or involve another umpire. By mentioning this, you’re giving that coach the fallacy that they can beseech the calling umpire to consult his/her partner and (hopefully, to them) overturn the call or introduce doubt.

I'll let you take it up with our TD.  :-)

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50 minutes ago, agdz59 said:

I'll let you take it up with our TD.  :-)

Are you saying that the Tournament Director is instituting this to be said at Plate Meetings? In this way? Then that’s a TD setting themself up for nothing but a headache.

Or is this the Site-UIC (Umpire In Charge / Chief) at that Tournament? If this is the case, I would take it up with him. It’s not very effective language for the Plate Meeting... what is he basing it upon so as to want to include it?

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12 hours ago, Biscuit said:

Gotta love "good" baserunning! 

Two things, I wouldn't go to my partner on this unless I thought I'd missed something. Sounds like you were pretty sure, stick with your call. Second, NEVER ask a coach if they want you to appeal. It will never end up well. If they claim something happened that you didn't see and can't rule out as a possibility, AND you think your partner may have been in a position to see it, that's when you ask them what they have. 

Not only ^that a million times, but I would add:

What you describe is not an appeal.  An appeal is something very specific.  If you feel you may have missed some piece of information, you can go to your partner for help not an appeal.

It may sound picky, but using “appeal” in that sense makes coaches think they can challenge any call they don’t like and get the other umpire to overturn the calling umpire.  :fuel:  (See what I did there?)

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11 hours ago, MadMax said:

That’s gotta end. Not only is that way too much to say at the Plate Meeting, but it’s being said wrong, in a way that will open a Pandora’s Box of Pain and Misery.

@agdz59 .... @MadMax speaks wisely. The soliloquy offers more potential problems than solutions. 

If you disagree, just say OK or thanks and ignore the advice. The depth and breadth of experience of this forum's frequenters is significant and the collective knowledge is likely unsurpassed.

Just saying.....

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1 hour ago, Kevin_K said:

soliloquy

TIMING TIMING TIMING!!    I need to slow down my timing.  I read that so fast the first time, I had (red) "solo cup".........

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Tangential thought: from the OP, it sounds like there was a conversation, at some point, between AA72, partner John and the base coach. If you do confer with your partner, do it out of the coaches' hearing.

Parenthetically to my tangential thought: even if sure, I would ask my partner what he had, as it's possible I missed it. I don't do it on judgment calls.

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10 hours ago, MadMax said:

Are you saying that the Tournament Director is instituting this to be said at Plate Meetings? In this way? Then that’s a TD setting themself up for nothing but a headache.

Or is this the Site-UIC (Umpire In Charge / Chief) at that Tournament? If this is the case, I would take it up with him. It’s not very effective language for the Plate Meeting... what is he basing it upon so as to want to include it?

 

11 hours ago, agdz59 said:

I'll let you take it up with our TD.  :-)

 

18 hours ago, agdz59 said:

I never have a problem asking for an appeal. In fact, in the youth tourneys around here, most of the time PU brings it up at the plate conference "we want to get the calls right so if you have a question, call time, tell me what you saw and I'll get together with my partner." 

No TD/UIC I've ever run across has mandated this - and I've been a TD and would never think of mandating something like this.

The closest I've seen - especially in scenarios where you have lesser experienced coaches - and NOT at the plate meeting, but at the pre-tourney coaches meeting - so it's said once, not at every game...and this language will usually come from the UIC, but sometimes the TD if the UIC isn't present.   I've also seen this said once at pre-season league meetings.

"You may not argue judgment calls...however, you may ASK an umpire to get assistance from his partner - in that case, request time, and talk to the umpire who made the call...if he thinks he needs help, he will talk to his partner...if he thinks he got the call right, he will not, and will tell you.  Anything beyond that will be considered arguing and you may be ejected.  Except for appealing a check swing you may never discuss/dispute balls or strikes."   And then there's the inevitable question and the response will be something like "the plate ump is NOT 'in charge' and cannot overrule the base ump".

Again, it's said once...it's an orientation for newer coaches, a reminder for the rest.

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14 hours ago, MadMax said:

Are you saying that the Tournament Director is instituting this to be said at Plate Meetings? In this way? Then that’s a TD setting themself up for nothing but a headache.

Or is this the Site-UIC (Umpire In Charge / Chief) at that Tournament? If this is the case, I would take it up with him. It’s not very effective language for the Plate Meeting... what is he basing it upon so as to want to include it?

At our pre-tournament meeting, the TD said he wanted to have us get the calls right - that meant getting together whenever asked to even if we were sure of our calls.  At a majority of the plate meetings in the 5 games I did, this was relayed to the coaches.  We didn't have any more problems than the last tournament we did.  I have no problem at 10U of having coaches ask us about calls.  Most of them are learning as well. YMMV.

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7 hours ago, Kevin_K said:

@agdz59 .... @MadMax speaks wisely. The soliloquy offers more potential problems than solutions. 

If you disagree, just say OK or thanks and ignore the advice. The depth and breadth of experience of this forum's frequenters is significant and the collective knowledge is likely unsurpassed.

Just saying.....

No question.  I consider myself still learning.  Haven't worked more than LL, 10Us and a few 7th-8th grade games.  Thanks to all for the feedback.

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Careful how the word "appeal" gets thrown around!  There are certain plays that are "appeals" of the offense committing a running violation.  Whether or not the ball was fouled is NOT an appeal play!  So don't use that terminology like that.  You do not ever have to "ask for help" from the other umpire unless you want to.  (No coach can force you to, but it's often courteous that you do--good form--, but by no means can you poach--overturn--a call that isn't one of yours.  That's one of those myths of baseball.)  Anyway, you gathered data from your partner.  That's a good thing as long as you don't keep doing it for every other play!

Mainly understand the difference between the terminology of "appeal" and "going for help".  Its important that you use that language precisely.

Here's a play I had that was quite the opposite!  2-2 count and the batter swings and.......well, I heard a tick.  I ruled FOUL as the ball rolled to the backstop.  Everybody else was telling the kid to run (as if it were a U3K).  There was all kind of bedlam going on.  I had my hands raised, and I ruled foul and the ball was dead.  Batter comes back with a 2-2 count.  The claim was made that the "tick" sound was the bat hitting the plate and NOT the ball.  (Could have been.)  I did ask for help, and my partner (in "A") said that he was not sure either way.  I pronounced the following:  "I cannot UNfoul a ball.  The call stands.  I am NOT Angel Hernandez!"

You had a better choice!  If you let the play go, and then you and your partner were 1000% sure it WAS foul, you CAN reset it!  And that IS making the right call.  In my case, I thought I was right--I had it "foul" and so called it.  (I might have been wrong.)  At least I felt I handled it gracefully as I could, and I did get help from my partner.

Mike

Las Vegas

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16 hours ago, Vegas_Ump said:

You had a better choice!  If you let the play go, and then you and your partner were 1000% sure it WAS foul, you CAN reset it!  And that IS making the right call.  In my case, I thought I was right--I had it "foul" and so called it.  (I might have been wrong.)  At least I felt I handled it gracefully as I could, and I did get help from my partner.

And that's all you can do - make the best judgment you can with the information you have at the time.  If your partner can add more information or insight, great, maybe you change the call, maybe you don't.

Statements like "we want to get the call right" are moronic...because nobody in their right mind would say "nah, we don't care if we're right or not"...umpires want to get every call right, and batters want to get on base every time, and fielders want to get the out every time, and coaches/teams want to win every game...nobody has to declare that, or use those statements to explain themselves.

It's like these announcers that say "the (insert team) really want to get a lead and avoid playing from behind"...."no?  Really?  Because all the other teams really like playing from behind all game?"

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