LL "Catch & Carry"

[LRZ]

What is the current LL rule about catching a ball and stepping into a dead ball area? Is it still the rule that the ball remains live unless the player falls? Or has LL amended its rule as MLB did several years ago? TIA.

[Senor Azul]

Here is the rule from the 2018 Rules Instruction Manual (with an added example from the instructors):

5.10 - The ball becomes dead when an umpire calls “Time.” The Umpire-in-Chief shall call “Time” –

(f) when a fielder, after catching a fly ball, falls into a stand, or falls across ropes into a crowd when spectators are on the field, or other dead-ball area. As pertains to runners, the provisions of 7.04(b) shall prevail. If a fielder, after making a catch steps into a dead-ball area, but does not fall, the ball is alive and in play and runners may advance at their own peril.

EXAMPLE: A fielder, after making a catch, steps into the stands (dead ball area) but does not fall.

Ruling: The ball is in play and runners may advance at their own peril. The fielder may attempt to make a play from the dead ball area, he/she does not have to come back into live ball territory to attempt to make a play on a runner providing the fielder did not fall down while in the dead ball area

The 2019 Little League Rule Changes and Clarifications added a new term to Rule 2 Definitions but did not make any change to the playing rules about catch and carry--

Rule 2.00 DEAD BALL AREA is the area beyond any intended physical boundary, such as a fence, rope, chalk line, any stands, bleachers, dugouts, player’s benches, or designated media areas, or any other boundary line as determined in the pregame conference. If a ball becomes lodged in a fence, backstop, umpire’s equipment, or catcher’s equipment, it is considered to be in a dead ball area.

By the way, I think the MLB made its change to the catch-and-carry rule in 2016 when they revised Rule 5.06(b)(3)(C) (including the Comment) to remove the opportunity for a player to "catch-and-carry" the ball into dead-ball territory.

[LRZ]

Thank you, Senor Azul. My library is nowhere as comprehensive and current as yours!

[JonnyCat]

This has changed for 2019. There is no more catch and carry. The wording for 5.10(f), page 93 in the 2019 rule book reads as follows:

5.10 - The ball becomes dead when an umpire calls “Time.” The Umpire-in-Chief shall call “Time” –

(f) when a fielder, after catching a fly ball, falls into a stand, or falls across ropes into a crowd when spectators are on the field, or other dead-ball area. As pertains to runners, the provisions of 7.04(b) shall prevail. If a fielder, after making a catch steps into a dead-ball area, the ball is dead;

In addition, the 2019 RIM reads as follows:

(f) when a fielder, after catching a fly ball, falls into a stand, or falls across ropes into a crowd when spectators are on the field, or other dead-ball area. As pertains to runners, the provisions of 7.04(b) shall prevail. If a fielder, after making a catch steps into a dead-ball area, the ball is dead and any runners on base will be awarded one base from their location at the time of the pitch.

[LRZ]

Thank you, JonnyCat. Good thing I asked.

So there is one text missing from Senor Azul's library. He will probably order it the minute he reads your post!

[Rich Ives]

2 hours ago, Senor Azul said:

Here is the rule from the 2018 Rules Instruction Manual (with an added example from the instructors):

5.10 - The ball becomes dead when an umpire calls “Time.” The Umpire-in-Chief shall call “Time” –

(f) when a fielder, after catching a fly ball, falls into a stand, or falls across ropes into a crowd when spectators are on the field, or other dead-ball area. As pertains to runners, the provisions of 7.04(b) shall prevail. If a fielder, after making a catch steps into a dead-ball area, but does not fall, the ball is alive and in play and runners may advance at their own peril.

EXAMPLE: A fielder, after making a catch, steps into the stands (dead ball area) but does not fall.

Ruling: The ball is in play and runners may advance at their own peril. The fielder may attempt to make a play from the dead ball area, he/she does not have to come back into live ball territory to attempt to make a play on a runner providing the fielder did not fall down while in the dead ball area

The 2019 Little League Rule Changes and Clarifications added a new term to Rule 2 Definitions but did not make any change to the playing rules about catch and carry--

Rule 2.00 DEAD BALL AREA is the area beyond any intended physical boundary, such as a fence, rope, chalk line, any stands, bleachers, dugouts, player’s benches, or designated media areas, or any other boundary line as determined in the pregame conference. If a ball becomes lodged in a fence, backstop, umpire’s equipment, or catcher’s equipment, it is considered to be in a dead ball area.

By the way, I think the MLB made its change to the catch-and-carry rule in 2016 when they revised Rule 5.06(b)(3)(C) (including the Comment) to remove the opportunity for a player to "catch-and-carry" the ball into dead-ball territory.

I think MLB changed it because all dbt is behind a fence/wall, unlike many youth league fields.

[Jimurray]

16 minutes ago, Rich Ives said:

I think MLB changed it because all dbt is behind a fence/wall, unlike many youth league fields.

NCAA and, I think, MLB changed it for "safety" and eliminated going into the dugout and keeping it live.

[JonnyCat]

6 hours ago, LRZ said:

Thank you, JonnyCat. Good thing I asked.

So there is one text missing from Senor Azul's library. He will probably order it the minute he reads your post!

It's not often someone can get one up on Senor Azul's library! His is very extensive!

[Senor Azul]

Mr. LRZ, I am glad to see that Mr. JonnyCat was able to provide you with a current ruling that answers your question. My response was wrong even though I did my usual due diligence. I checked two different sites that listed rule changes for 2019 Little League and neither mentioned any change to the catch-and-carry rule. So I assumed (big mistake) that the 2018 ruling was still in effect—I apologize.

I would like to ask Mr. JonnyCat how he knew about this new policy though. I have not been able to find any announcement of such a rule change. Perhaps I am not searching using the correct terminology—in other words, did I just plain goof up? Could you provide a link to this new policy please?

[JonnyCat]

4 minutes ago, Senor Azul said:

Mr. LRZ, I am glad to see that Mr. JonnyCat was able to provide you with a current ruling that answers your question. My response was wrong even though I did my usual due diligence. I checked two different sites that listed rule changes for 2019 Little League and neither mentioned any change to the catch-and-carry rule. So I assumed (big mistake) that the 2018 ruling was still in effect—I apologize.

I would like to ask Mr. JonnyCat how he knew about this new policy though. I have not been able to find any announcement of such a rule change. Perhaps I am not searching using the correct terminology—in other words, did I just plain goof up? Could you provide a link to this new policy please?

Senor Azul. For some reason they changed the wording and didn't mention it in the front of the rule book. Normally, LL will announce significant changes in the front section of the rule book, but it is not in the 2019 edition on page 4 under "Significant Changes for 2019." Not sure if they just missed it, or if they did not think it was significant.

I teach LL rules and mechanics at our District and am friendly with many of the Western Region instructors, and the WR UIC, so I'm usually on top of the rule changes. One of my colleagues helps teach a rules class at Western Region. He is the one that alerted me to the catch and carry rule change. I haven't seen any major announcement from LL regarding this change. I'll keep looking though, and report any findings.

[Senor Azul]

Thank you very much, Mr. JonnyCat--you have saved me a bunch of time searching. For whatever reason we seem to be getting a lot of Little League related questions recently and I think we have found a go-to guy with impressive credentials—a Little League expert--you.

I noticed while checking out the front matter of my 2016 LL rule book that a Michael Mussina is listed as a member of the rules committee. Do you know if that is the HOF pitcher Mike Mussina and if he is still a member of that committee?

[JonnyCat]

Thank you Senor Azul. I really enjoy your contributions to this site!

Yes, that is the same Mike Mussina. He is still listed as a member of the LL BOD and Rules Committee. I believe he was born in Williamsport PA, and still lives nearby.

[Lou B]

JonnyCat is correct, born in Williamsport and lives in Montoursville where he went to high school.  Talked to him several times at 'LL Congresses.  He was the high school boys basketball coach, not sure if he still is? Was running some sort of local sports acadamy.

Very nice guy.

[stkjock]

@Senor Azul LL started a lot of Williamsport tournaments this week, at least in the northeast.  Could be the reason for the influx. 

[Senor Azul]

That makes sense. You're probably right. Thanks, Mr. stkjock. For some reason that had not occurred to me--I guess that I was thinking only about the finals in August. 

[Jimurray]

2 hours ago, stkjock said:

@Senor Azul LL started a lot of Williamsport tournaments this week, at least in the northeast.  Could be the reason for the influx. 

There is a weird LL calendar on their website that some regions are using to say that certain divisions should not start district or section before a certain date. Appears some are not aware of this “calendar”. 

[stkjock]

@Jimurray yea, LL is odd with the WP tournaments and dates, here in the NE we were never allowed to even announce the WP teams till 6/15, while some southern and western areas (read "hot climates") seem to have been well into their tournament by then.

[SJA]

I anticipate that WPLL will eventually "dissolve" or be "absorbed" by other "LL's" due to their constant ambiguous changing of rules, formats, and management skills.

my .02

[stkjock]

30 minutes ago, SJA said:

I anticipate that WPLL will eventually "dissolve" or be "absorbed" by other "LL's" due to their constant ambiguous changing of rules, formats, and management skills.

my .02

WPLL = Williamsport LL?

 

that's LLI, and with the contract for the LLWS they have with ESPN/Disney, I don't see that happening. 

[SJA]

Yes  "LLI". ESPN  / Disney can cancel a contract just like any other big company given the appropriate circumstances. Never say never.

:-)

[stkjock]

55 minutes ago, stkjock said:

WPLL = Williamsport LL?

 

that's LLI, and with the contract for the LLWS they have with ESPN/Disney, I don't see that happening. 

 

27 minutes ago, SJA said:

Yes  "LLI". ESPN  / Disney can cancel a contract just like any other big company given the appropriate circumstances. Never say never.

:-)

Good thing I didn't say never...  

 

as for ESPN - I think they make way too much money from that contract to cancel it.  They got 460ish of hours of programing in 2018 for $7.5MM, that's 20,650 per hour (estimated) that's incredibly cheap

[Lou B]

On 6/24/2019 at 8:59 AM, stkjock said:

@Jimurray yea, LL is odd with the WP tournaments and dates, here in the NE we were never allowed to even announce the WP teams till 6/15, while some southern and western areas (read "hot climates") seem to have been well into their tournament by then.

You can announce and start practicing your All Star teams on June 1st.  It's been that way for several years now.  It used to be June 15th or two weeks prior to the start of your District Tournament.

Also, LL has posted the Approved Tournament Dates/Calendar on their Website for as long as I can remember, it shouldnt be a surprise to any LL District Administrator.

 

By the way, whether it's June 1 or the old June 15, it's the same date for everyone, so, the South or West can't start any earlier than the North.

[Jimurray]

13 minutes ago, Lou B said:

You can announce and start practicing your All Star teams on June 1st.  It's been that way for several years now.  It used to be June 15th or two weeks prior to the start of your District Tournament.

Also, LL has posted the Approved Tournament Dates/Calendar on their Website for as long as I can remember, it shouldnt be a surprise to any LL District Administrator.

What is a surprise is the earliest start date for LL Baseball is June 24th for district and July 19th for section. 

[stkjock]

1 hour ago, Lou B said:

You can announce and start practicing your All Star teams on June 1st.  It's been that way for several years now.  It used to be June 15th or two weeks prior to the start of your District Tournament.

Also, LL has posted the Approved Tournament Dates/Calendar on their Website for as long as I can remember, it shouldnt be a surprise to any LL District Administrator.

thanks for the update, it's been 3 years since I has a LL aged player so the 15th was what I dealt with when I was a coach/parent.

 

agreed it should not be a surprise.

[Lou B]

4 hours ago, SJA said:

I anticipate that WPLL will eventually "dissolve" or be "absorbed" by other "LL's" due to their constant ambiguous changing of rules, formats, and management skills.

my .02

Little League numbers have fallen for the last 5-10 years but they are still the largest youth baseball organization and no one is even a close second.

Little League also has the name recognition and that's obviously why they've got the big TV contract (sort of like ND  Football).  I wouldn't bet on Disney/ESPN pulling out of that one, in fact, year after year there has been more TV coverage, not less.

My $.02