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ArchAngel72

checking to make sure this was correct

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Ok, 

Minor league 8-10 yr old Little League

Town league playoffs so we go by regular season rules not Tourney rules

top of 4th? maybe 5th

HTHC makes a pitching change with 2 outs bases loaded brings in a kid that threw on Mon that week this is Wed, and he thru 65 pitches at least

I know as I PU that game.  I recognized him as the kid that was throwing everything like 1 to 2 inches outside the zone. But hey that was Mon todays a new day far as I care he's gonna paint corners like Roger Clemens 

So he warms up, throws 4 or 5 pitches and gets the 1st batter to pop out to 1st base, 3rd out of the inning.

The kids start to swap on the field and the VT coach comes across the field, I'm nearby as I'm getting my water thats stored near the HT entrance.  VTAC ( scorekeeper) asks HTHC "Hey Paul how many pitches did "Jimmy" throw on Monday"  

Immediately I am ears wide open scrambling in my head "Oh crap they used an illegal pitcher".  I'm wracking my brains on illegal substitutions and etc etc. All I can recall is If an out of order batter is used and its not protested before the next play/pitch to the next batter then it stays as it was and we continue on.

The HTHC pulls out his phone pulls up his text to the league office on his eligible pitchers. "Oh crap he says he was not available to pitch."  VTAC says to me OK I protest what do we do know do we win by forfeit.  

I immediately say "NO, you do not. give me a second"  I look at the field that pitcher has not thrown another pitch to the next batter. 

We go back to where it was and replay it with an eligible pitcher.  Bases loaded 2 outs same batter up, like it never happened. 

I called the DA and ran over it quickly she had me repeat it to an Ump who was there and has done Regionals.  He agreed with what I said.

Im thinking ..Phew 

So I go pawing thru the rule book, so far I have found batter out of order but not ineligible pitcher.

Anyway.

Yup 3rd season 1st behind plate 1st season doing games solo and I get THIS crap dropped on me.. sigh.. well live and learn by fire 

SO was this correct?

 

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LL rule 4.19(d) states

"... Whenever it is found that an ineligible pitcher or ineligible player is being used, said pitcher shall be removed from the mound, or said player shall be removed from the game, and the game shall be continued under protest or not as the protesting manager decides"

Using that, the correct procedure seems to be to continue play, disallowing the inelligible pitcher to continue pitching, then let the league handle it, if the protesting coach wants to continue his protest. 

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OK So we should not have put it back.  However

4.19 (g)  Minor League: A local league may adopt a rule that protests must be resolved before the next pitch or play.

 

 

So based on it being local playoffs and then me calling the DA that would or should actually be a correct calling yes?

 

And thanks for digging that up I looked and looked and looked and could not find that and I was in 4.19.. thats so frustrating

 

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It's a Tournament, you have to resolve the issue before proceeding.

So, go to the Tournament Director and get it resolved. 

In our Top Team Tournament the TD would call the DA who would call the other two members of the Protest Committee (the DUIC and me!) and a Final Ruling would be made.  The Protest Process is described in our Tournament Rules.I

Question 1): Did you know he was an ineligible pitcher when they sent him to the mound?  If you did you should not have allowed it to happen.

Question 2): It's aTournament, don't you go over eligible/ineligible pitchers at the plate conference?

You need to politely inform your DA and the ump that did Regionals that they ruled incorrectly, no "do-over".

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17 hours ago, Lou B said:

It's a Tournament, you have to resolve the issue before proceeding.

So, go to the Tournament Director and get it resolved. 

In our Top Team Tournament the TD would call the DA who would call the other two members of the Protest Committee (the DUIC and me!) and a Final Ruling would be made.  The Protest Process is described in our Tournament Rules.I

Question 1): Did you know he was an ineligible pitcher when they sent him to the mound?  If you did you should not have allowed it to happen.

Question 2): It's aTournament, don't you go over eligible/ineligible pitchers at the plate conference?

You need to politely inform your DA and the ump that did Regionals that they ruled incorrectly, no "do-over".

Not tourney its Town playoffs 

see 3rd line of text in OP

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First lesson learned:

At the plate meeting when taking the line up cards, ask each manager if they have any ineligible pitchers. Make a note on your line up card. After the plate meeting make sure the head scorekeeper is also aware of who is not eligible. If a manager then tries to enter these players, there is a good chance the change is caught early and before any issue is created. LL expects the officials, managers and scorekeepers to keep this situation from occurring. It is one of the few times I expect the scorekeeper to interject something into the management of the game.

Assuming your league plays this under regular season Green Book rules, and this is an intra-league playoff, then your BOD should have a mechanism in place to deal with any potential protest issue. Waiting until the next day is not going to resolve anything, especially if this is an elimination game and the winner has to play again in a day or two.

As for the pitcher, if you caught this prior to pitching to a batter:

Regulation VI (page 46 in the 2019 book) states under NOTES:

1. The withdrawal of an ineligible pitcher after that pitcher is announced, or after a warm-up pitch is delivered, but before that player has pitched a ball to the batter, shall not be considered a violation. LL officials are urged to take precautions to prevent protests. When a protest situation is imminent, the potential offender should be notified immediately. 

AR - Minor League Majors and LL Majors: When warming up, if a pitcher is discovered to be ineligible, he/she must be removed and the previous pitcher of record may not return.

 

But in your scenario, you now have an ineligible pitcher, which as defined in Rule 2 - applies to regular season violations of Regulation VI. (See also Rule 4.19)

4.19 (a) Protest shall be considered only when based on the violation or interpretation of a playing rule, use of an ineligible pitcher or the use of an ineligible player....

4.19 (d) Protest made due to the use of an ineligible pitcher or ineligible player may be considered only if made to the umpire before the umpire(s) leave the field at the end of the game. Whenever it is found that in ineligible pitcher or ineligible player is being used, said pitcher shall be removed from the mound, or said player shall be removed from the game, and the game shall be continued under protest or not as the protesting manager decides. 

 

So bottom line... add asking about the pitcher to your plate meeting, Write it down... Next time this comes up, remove the pitcher, eject him if you think it is warranted, log the protest or resolve it ASAP if a playoff game, and move on. Follow the rest of 4.19 and submit your protest report to the league reps within 24 hours.

 

 

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On 6/18/2019 at 8:37 AM, ArchAngel72 said:

Not tourney its Town playoffs 

see 3rd line of text in OP

I read the OP.

Around here Town Playoffs are a Special Games Tournament that use Regular Season Rules.

My point was, there should be a Protest Process specified in the Rules.

The DA was called so I "assume" the game was played between teams from different leagues otherwise why call the DA and not the League President or League UIC?

If different leagues are playing in 'LL it's covered by a Special Games Request.  Call it what you want, I'll call it a Tournament! :)

Even if this was a game between two teams from the same "town league" vying for the town/league Championship there should be a specified Protest Process. I would think a Protest would need to be resolved on the spot, if it's a playoff you don't want to have to come back and finish the game later, it messes up the schedule!

By the way, could you answer my two questions?

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On 6/17/2019 at 3:06 PM, Lou B said:

It's a Tournament, you have to resolve the issue before proceeding.

So, go to the Tournament Director and get it resolved. 

In our Top Team Tournament the TD would call the DA who would call the other two members of the Protest Committee (the DUIC and me!) and a Final Ruling would be made.  The Protest Process is described in our Tournament Rules.I

Question 1): Did you know he was an ineligible pitcher when they sent him to the mound?  If you did you should not have allowed it to happen. I did not know until it was asked at the time just before the protest

Question 2): It's aTournament, don't you go over eligible/ineligible pitchers at the plate conference?  As I mentioned its a town league playoff and they do not use tourney rules. However the coaches post to the towns website their eligible pitchers. But I do not have access to that.

You need to politely inform your DA and the ump that did Regionals that they ruled incorrectly, no "do-over".

 

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