Tag up on a foul fly ball

[Steven Tyler]

It's been a while, but in baseball rulebooks it used to state that a runner may legally tag when a fly ball is caught I believe.  Didn't FED change their ruling to say when a fair fly ball is first touched and foul ball is caught?  

Didn't Evans and other academies teach the same thing at one time or has anything changed since?  I'm pretty sure Jim always pointed this one out at the beginnings of his rule clinics.

Edited June 11, 2019 by Steven Tyler
Added information

[noumpere]

I'm not sure if you are asking what the rule book specifically states, or what it means.

 

If it's the latter, a runner can leave when the ball is first touched.  All codes.  Fair ball of foul ball.  Day game or night game.

[beerguy55]

8 hours ago, Steven Tyler said:

It's been a while, but in baseball rulebooks it used to state that a runner may legally tag when a fly ball is caught I believe.  Didn't FED change their ruling to say when a fair fly ball is first touched and foul ball is caught?  

Didn't Evans and other academies teach the same thing at one time or has anything changed since?  I'm pretty sure Jim always pointed this one out at the beginnings of his rule clinics.

All baseball and softball codes enforce the "touch" standard, even if not technically written in black and white.

FED says touch

ART. 4 . . . If a fair or foul batted ball is caught, other than a foul tip, each base runner shall touch his base after the batted ball has touched a fielder. 

AND

ART. 6 . . . Appeal procedures and guidelines

a. Types

1. Missing a base

2. Leaving a base on a caught fly ball before the ball is first touched.

OBR says caught

Any runner is out when:

(5) He fails to retouch his base after a fair or foul ball is legally caught before he, or his base, is tagged by a fielder

AND

Any runner shall be called out, on appeal, when: (1) After a fly ball is caught, he fails to retouch his original base before he or his original base is tagged;

Rule 5.09(c)(1) Comment (Rule 7.10(a) Comment): “Retouch,” in this rule, means to tag up and start from a contact with the base after the ball is caught. A runner is not permitted to take a flying start from a position in back of his base

 

 

Official Rules of Softball specifically says:

A runner is NOT out:

l. When he holds his base until a fly ball touches a fielder and then attempts to advance

 

[Jimurray]

18 minutes ago, beerguy55 said:

All baseball and softball codes enforce the "touch" standard, even if not technically written in black and white.

FED says touch

ART. 4 . . . If a fair or foul batted ball is caught, other than a foul tip, each base runner shall touch his base after the batted ball has touched a fielder. 

AND

ART. 6 . . . Appeal procedures and guidelines

a. Types

1. Missing a base

2. Leaving a base on a caught fly ball before the ball is first touched.

OBR says caught

Any runner is out when:

(5) He fails to retouch his base after a fair or foul ball is legally caught before he, or his base, is tagged by a fielder

AND

Any runner shall be called out, on appeal, when: (1) After a fly ball is caught, he fails to retouch his original base before he or his original base is tagged;

Rule 5.09(c)(1) Comment (Rule 7.10(a) Comment): “Retouch,” in this rule, means to tag up and start from a contact with the base after the ball is caught. A runner is not permitted to take a flying start from a position in back of his base

 

 

Official Rules of Softball specifically says:

A runner is NOT out:

l. When he holds his base until a fly ball touches a fielder and then attempts to advance

 

OBR clarifies it elsewhere in the rules:

”5.09(a)(1)

Catch Comment: A catch is legal if the ball is finally held by any fielder, even though juggled, or held by another fielder before it touches the ground. Runners may leave their bases the instant the first fielder touches the ball. A fielder may reach over a fence, railing, rope or other line of demarcation to make a catch. He may jump on top of a railing, or canvas that may be in foul ground. No interference should be allowed when a fielder reaches over a fence, railing, rope or into a stand to catch a ball. He does so at his own risk.”

[Senor Azul]

The exact same text appears in the appendix Definitions of Terms in the entry for the term catch--

2019 OBR DEFINITIONS OF TERMS

(Catch) Comment: A catch is legal if the ball is finally held by any fielder, even though juggled, or held by another fielder before it touches the ground. Runners may leave their bases the instant the first fielder touches the ball. A fielder may reach over a fence, railing, rope or other line of demarcation to make a catch. He may jump on top of a railing, or canvas that may be in foul ground. No interference should be allowed when a fielder reaches over a fence, railing, rope or into a stand to catch a ball. He does so at his own risk.

[Vegas_Ump]

Last year in LL District Play (different District than mine), there was a weird one!

R2, R3, no outs.  B3 hit a screaming line drive that hit F1 in the head!  [He was immediately taken to a hospital under concussion protocol.]  The ball bounced up in the air, where F8 came running in and made a spectacular catch.  R3 and R2 had already run around and scored.

Defense wanted to appeal R3 and R2 for leaving their bases before the catch.  Umpires ruled that the beginning of the catch was the contact with F1!  Two runs scored.

F1 was cleared to play after a few days; he's OK.

Mike

Las Vegas

[beerguy55]

37 minutes ago, Vegas_Ump said:

R2, R3, no outs.  B3 hit a screaming line drive that hit F1 in the head!  [He was immediately taken to a hospital under concussion protocol.]  The ball bounced up in the air, where F8 came running in and made a spectacular catch.  R3 and R2 had already run around and scored.

Defense wanted to appeal R3 and R2 for leaving their bases before the catch.  Umpires ruled that the beginning of the catch was the contact with F1!  Two runs scored.

 

I hope they were sure - even in LL rules the likelihood is the runners were off the base before the ball hit F1 - they would have had to immediately stopped their momentum, gone back and touched, and then run (and what LL player would know to do that?)...or umps would have had to rule that the runners had never even left the base until after the ball hit F1.

Had a play a few years ago...screaming line drive at F6 who sticks out the glove...R2 a couple of paces off the base stops, thinking it would be caught...the ball deflects up in the air...R2 seeing it wasn't caught continues to third...the ball comes right back down into F6's glove...strolls over and touches second for the DP.  Coach tried to argue the "touch" rule and then ump explained it didn't matter, because R2 never retouched second after the ball was touched either.

[Rich Ives]

1 hour ago, beerguy55 said:

I hope they were sure - even in LL rules the likelihood is the runners were off the base before the ball hit F1 -

I'll take that bet. Plenty of BP pitching says the ball got there before the runners were off the base. A "screaming line drive" gets back to you really really quickly. 

[Steven Tyler]

On 6/11/2019 at 7:36 AM, noumpere said:

I'm not sure if you are asking what the rule book specifically states, or what it means.

 

If it's the latter, a runner can leave when the ball is first touched.  All codes.  Fair ball of foul ball.  Day game or night game.

All I'm implying that when touched over foul ground it is a foul ball until caught even if it isn't bobbled.  A poorly written rule is what I'm asking about.  Guess I've been around longer than you have and had discussions with more learned and experienced umpires.  

[Steven Tyler]

On 6/11/2019 at 1:30 PM, beerguy55 said:

I hope they were sure - even in LL rules the likelihood is the runners were off the base before the ball hit F1 - they would have had to immediately stopped their momentum, gone back and touched, and then run (and what LL player would know to do that?)...or umps would have had to rule that the runners had never even left the base until after the ball hit F1.

Had a play a few years ago...screaming line drive at F6 who sticks out the glove...R2 a couple of paces off the base stops, thinking it would be caught...the ball deflects up in the air...R2 seeing it wasn't caught continues to third...the ball comes right back down into F6's glove...strolls over and touches second for the DP.  Coach tried to argue the "touch" rule and then ump explained it didn't matter, because R2 never retouched second after the ball was touched either.

F1 was struck over fair ground and all that is required is first touch in your scenario.

[Steven Tyler]

On 6/11/2019 at 10:01 AM, Jimurray said:

OBR clarifies it elsewhere in the rules:

”5.09(a)(1)

Catch Comment: A catch is legal if the ball is finally held by any fielder, even though juggled, or held by another fielder before it touches the ground. Runners may leave their bases the instant the first fielder touches the ball. A fielder may reach over a fence, railing, rope or other line of demarcation to make a catch. He may jump on top of a railing, or canvas that may be in foul ground. No interference should be allowed when a fielder reaches over a fence, railing, rope or into a stand to catch a ball. He does so at his own risk.”

I'm aware of the rule, but my point is that it is written poorly as in reality a ball touched over foul ground is a foul ball until caught.  Runners can't advance on a foul ball.  Why a legal catch  would be required.  Jim Evans used to point out this out...…...I would say he is a pretty good authority on the rules wouldn't you agree?

[beerguy55]

26 minutes ago, Steven Tyler said:

F1 was struck over fair ground and all that is required is first touch in your scenario.

The question isn't whether F1 touched the ball (doesn't matter if he was fair or foul)...the question is whether or not the runners had left their bases before F1 touched the ball (and if they did, did they go back).  With LL, it's going to be close...bang bang.  Runners are timing themselves to be off the base just as the ball is reaching the plate...if they're doing that, even on a screaming line drive, they're (technically and probably) off the base before F1 is hit by the ball...and if they are, they have to retouch (they don't need to wait for the ball to be caught, but they have to retouch because they were off the bag before the first touch).    If they were still on the bag when F1 was hit then they're fine.

27 minutes ago, Steven Tyler said:

All I'm implying that when touched over foul ground it is a foul ball until caught even if it isn't bobbled.  A poorly written rule is what I'm asking about.  Guess I've been around longer than you have and had discussions with more learned and experienced umpires.  

 

19 minutes ago, Steven Tyler said:

I'm aware of the rule, but my point is that it is written poorly as in reality a ball touched over foul ground is a foul ball until caught.  Runners can't advance on a foul ball.  Why a legal catch  would be required.  Jim Evans used to point out this out...…...I would say he is a pretty good authority on the rules wouldn't you agree?

Runners can indeed tag up and advance on a caught foul ball.  And they are required to tag up on a caught foul ball.  Have you seriously been umping games and not allowing this?   Or are you arguing the semantics of whether or not a caught ball can be "foul"?   If that's the issue, what does it matter?  The runners can run all they want, like they can on any other ball that is, appears to be, or ends up foul...if it ends up foul they have to return to their base TOP.  If it ends up caught, they've legally left the base after first touch, and can advance.   If they left early, they have to return.

[Steven Tyler]

23 minutes ago, beerguy55 said:

The question isn't whether F1 touched the ball (doesn't matter if he was fair or foul)...the question is whether or not the runners had left their bases before F1 touched the ball (and if they did, did they go back).  With LL, it's going to be close...bang bang.  Runners are timing themselves to be off the base just as the ball is reaching the plate...if they're doing that, even on a screaming line drive, they're (technically and probably) off the base before F1 is hit by the ball...and if they are, they have to retouch (they don't need to wait for the ball to be caught, but they have to retouch because they were off the bag before the first touch).    If they were still on the bag when F1 was hit then they're fine.

 

Runners can indeed tag up and advance on a caught foul ball.  And they are required to tag up on a caught foul ball.  Have you seriously been umping games and not allowing this?   Or are you arguing the semantics of whether or not a caught ball can be "foul"?   If that's the issue, what does it matter?  The runners can run all they want, like they can on any other ball that is, appears to be, or ends up foul...if it ends up foul they have to return to their base TOP.  If it ends up caught, they've legally left the base after first touch, and can advance.   If they left early, they have to return.

 

[Steven Tyler]

Can you read and if you can, can you comprehend?  WHERE DID I SAY A RUNNER COULDN'T TAG UP ON A FOUL BALL?

I saying that a runner has to wait until the catch is complete until they can legally tag?

Question for ya' there?  What's a ball that is touched over foul ground?    

If you see a sign that says FINE FOR HUNTING, do you get your rifle out and go huntin' wabbits?

 

[Biscuit]

26 minutes ago, Steven Tyler said:

Can you read and if you can, can you comprehend?  WHERE DID I SAY A RUNNER COULDN'T TAG UP ON A FOUL BALL?

I saying that a runner has to wait until the catch is complete until they can legally tag?

Question for ya' there?  What's a ball that is touched over foul ground?    

If you see a sign that says FINE FOR HUNTING, do you get your rifle out and go huntin' wabbits?

 

No, because it's never a foul ball, therefore it's exactly the same as a bobbled catch in fair territory 

[beerguy55]

9 minutes ago, Steven Tyler said:

Can you read and if you can, can you comprehend?  WHERE DID I SAY A RUNNER COULDN'T TAG UP ON A FOUL BALL?

I saying that a runner has to wait until the catch is complete until they can legally tag?

Question for ya' there?  What's a ball that is touched over foul ground?    

If you see a sign that says FINE FOR HUNTING, do you get your rifle out and go huntin' wabbits?

 

Can you read?  I also asked "OR are you arguing the semantics of whether or not a caught ball can be "foul"?

A runner doesn't have to wait for the catch on a ball in foul territory for the same reason he doesn't have to wait for a catch on a ball in fair territory.   The rule was created because somewhere around 150 years ago some left fielder juggled a fly ball back into the infield before completing the catch to prevent F3 from tagging and scoring (or the rule makers had the foresight to predict someone would try it).  Or, someone faked out a catch, juggled it, and got the runner on appeal when they left after thinking the ball was caught.  Those two things could also be done on a ball in foul territory.  The rule protects the offense in both scenarios.

 

[noumpere]

1 hour ago, Steven Tyler said:

All I'm implying that when touched over foul ground it is a foul ball until caught even if it isn't bobbled.  A poorly written rule is what I'm asking about.  Guess I've been around longer than you have and had discussions with more learned and experienced umpires.  

A wording error in OBR?  Say it ain't so.  At least this one doesn't cause any confusion to how the game is actually called / played (at least once an umpire gets past his / her first few games and raises the more common and easily answered question of "leave on catch or leave on first touch?")

 

Almost anything is possible.

[Steven Tyler]

2 minutes ago, beerguy55 said:

Can you read?  I also asked "OR are you arguing the semantics of whether or not a caught ball can be "foul"?

A runner doesn't have to wait for the catch on a ball in foul territory for the same reason he doesn't have to wait for a catch on a ball in fair territory.   The rule was created because somewhere around 150 years ago some left fielder juggled a fly ball back into the infield before completing the catch to prevent F3 from tagging and scoring (or the rule makers had the foresight to predict someone would try it).  Or, someone faked out a catch, juggled it, and got the runner on appeal when they left after thinking the ball was caught.  Those two things could also be done on a ball in foul territory.  The rule protects the offense in both scenarios.

 

Any and every ball touched over foul territory is ALWAYS  a foul ball.  ALWAYS!

[Jimurray]

1 hour ago, Steven Tyler said:

I'm aware of the rule, but my point is that it is written poorly as in reality a ball touched over foul ground is a foul ball until caught.  Runners can't advance on a foul ball.  Why a legal catch  would be required.  Jim Evans used to point out this out...…...I would say he is a pretty good authority on the rules wouldn't you agree?

I've been to an Evans clinic and while  he pointed out some problems with the wording in the OBR rules I don't think he advised anyone to apply the retouch rule differently for a fair fly and a foul fly. I'm betting he never called it differently in his pro career. BTW, are you saying this FED rule was once worded differently? "8-2 ART. 4 . . . If a fair or foul batted ball is caught, other than a foul tip, each base runner shall touch his base after the batted ball has touched a fielder. (See 8-4-1c for fielder intentionally dropping the ball and 8-4-2i for runner being put out.)"

[Rich Ives]

14 minutes ago, Steven Tyler said:

Any and every ball touched over foul territory is ALWAYS  a foul ball.  ALWAYS!

Not if it's a bounding ball that touched the ground in fair territory before passing  over 1B or 3B and then went into foul territory after passing  over 1B or 3B.

[grayhawk]

@Steven Tyler, might I suggest:

[beerguy55]

2 hours ago, Steven Tyler said:

Any and every ball touched over foul territory is ALWAYS  a foul ball.  ALWAYS!

and?

You keep arguing points that no one else is arguing.  

What's your point?

Where does it say that a ball caught in foul territory isn't a foul ball?   The fly ball over foul territory is foul the moment it is touched...that doesn't preclude that it can't be caught...and the ball doesn't stop being "foul" when it is caught.

A FOUL BALL is a batted ball that settles on foul territory between home and first base, or between home and third base, or that bounds past first or third base on or over foul territory, or that first falls on foul territory beyond first or third base, or that, while on or over foul territory, touches the person of an umpire or player, or any object foreign to the natural ground. A foul fly shall be judged according to the relative position of the ball and the foul line, including the foul pole, and not as to whether the infielder is on foul or fair territory at the time he touches the ball.

And, 

(c) Dead Balls

The ball becomes dead and runners advance one base, or return to their bases, without liability to be put out, when:

(5) A foul ball is not caught, in which case runners return to their bases

Doesn't this imply that a foul ball can be caught?  And that a ball caught over foul territory is a foul ball?  And that on a foul ball that IS caught the ball isn't dead?  This also implies that a foul ball isn't dead until it can't be caught.

[Mad Mike]

   Use the rules to solve a problem, not to create one........