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Non-Force Tag

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Fielder possesses ball in throwing hand. Glove is empty. Non force. Player tags runner with empty glove while the ball is touching the glove firmly. Out or safe?

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By rule, this is not a legal tag of a player. The ball must be in the hand that is tagging the runner.

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1 hour ago, Matt said:

By rule, this is not a legal tag of a player. The ball must be in the hand that is tagging the runner.

Agreed -- but if the hands are together, I'm probably not going to see that the ball was outside the glove and not inside the glove.

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21 hours ago, noumpere said:

Agreed -- but if the hands are together, I'm probably not going to see that the ball was outside the glove and not inside the glove.

Maybe I'm wrong (talk to the wife...won't be the first or last time), but I thought that if the hands were together, even if the ball was not "in" the glove (ie. closed glove, ball held against glove)  and it was the glove that touched the runner, it is still a tag.

 

Or is it more realistically a matter of practicality, and like you said, in real time really difficult/impossible to differentiate.   I guess the question is, in MLB under slow motion replay review, would this be ruled a tag?

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Definition of a tag requires it to be with the hand holding the ball or with the glove with the ball in it.

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4 hours ago, beerguy55 said:

Maybe I'm wrong (talk to the wife...won't be the first or last time), but I thought that if the hands were together, even if the ball was not "in" the glove (ie. closed glove, ball held against glove)  and it was the glove that touched the runner, it is still a tag.

 

Or is it more realistically a matter of practicality, and like you said, in real time really difficult/impossible to differentiate.   I guess the question is, in MLB under slow motion replay review, would this be ruled a tag?

You're right. If a runner is tagged with a glove and the bare hand is holding the ball in the glove, it's a tag. 

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9 minutes ago, Stk004 said:

You're right. If a runner is tagged with a glove and the bare hand is holding the ball in the glove, it's a tag. 

When I coached I remember instructing catcher's to do that to have better control of the ball on tags at home.

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3 hours ago, Stk004 said:

You're right. If a runner is tagged with a glove and the bare hand is holding the ball in the glove, it's a tag. 

In the glove yes. Not in the glove, no.

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4 hours ago, Rich Ives said:

In the glove yes. Not in the glove, no.

That's what I said

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5 minutes ago, Stk004 said:

That's what I said

Not disputing what you said. Pointing out the limits because others opined that having the hands together was enough.

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3 minutes ago, Rich Ives said:

Not disputing what you said. Pointing out the limits because others opined that having the hands together was enough.

Is there a scenario where the bare hand and ball is in the glove and you don't have a tag? 

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15 minutes ago, Stk004 said:

Is there a scenario where the bare hand and ball is in the glove and you don't have a tag? 

You are missing my point. 

Look at beerguy55 and noupere's posts. Both consider the possibility that if the bare hand with the ball is outside the glove the tag is still acceptable. 

Trying to point out that out isn't.

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NFHS

Rule 2 Playing Terms and Definitions

SECTION 24 OUT: FORCE-OUT, PUTOUT, STRIKEOUT, TAG OUT, THROW-OUT

ART. 4 . . . A tag out is the put out of a runner, including the batter-runner, who is not in contact with his base when touched with a live ball, or with the glove or hand when the live ball is held securely therein by a fielder. The ball is not considered as having been securely held if it is juggled or dropped after the touching, unless the runner deliberately knocks the ball from the hand of the fielder (8-4-2h2).

Unless there is a case or interpretation that says otherwise ... the definition reads that the ball must be secured in the hand or glove making the tag.

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From the 2018 Minor League Baseball Umpire Manual (section 10.8, p. 137):

The Official Baseball Rule further defines a “tag” as touching a runner with the ball, or with his hand or glove holding the ball (not including hanging laces alone), while holding the ball securely and firmly in his hand or glove (or in his bare hand pressed against his glove)…

The italicized text (or in his bare hand pressed against his glove) is underlined in the original text in the book indicating that this was a change of some kind for the 2018 season. It does not go on to differentiate between the ball being pressed against the glove on the inside of the glove or on the outside of the glove. I cannot a find a stated reason for the change. But that may not be necessary as the good ole Jaksa/Roder manual (2017 edition, p. 29) comes to my aid once again with their definition of tag.

A tag occurs when the ball is live and a fielder has the ball in his hand or glove (or both) and…a runner is touched by any part of the glove/ball, hand/ball, or glove/hand/ball combination (excepting that if dangling laces alone touch the base or runner, it is not a tag).

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8 hours ago, Rich Ives said:

You are missing my point. 

Look at beerguy55 and noupere's posts. Both consider the possibility that if the bare hand with the ball is outside the glove the tag is still acceptable. 

Trying to point out that out isn't.

That's not what I said.  I said I wouldn't likely notice if the hands were together but the ball was outside the glove. 

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11 hours ago, Stk004 said:

Is there a scenario where the bare hand and ball is in the glove and you don't have a tag? 

 

11 hours ago, Rich Ives said:

You are missing my point. 

Look at beerguy55 and noupere's posts. Both consider the possibility that if the bare hand with the ball is outside the glove the tag is still acceptable. 

Trying to point out that out isn't.

 

 

2 hours ago, noumpere said:

That's not what I said.  I said I wouldn't likely notice if the hands were together but the ball was outside the glove. 

I asked if holding the hands together was enough - as Rich says - the ball in your bare hand, against the outside of the glove, and then with the hand/ball/glove together (but ball against the glove, not in it) the glove touches the runner - is that a tag, technically?   That is, under MLB replay review with slow motion high def detail, would this be ruled not a tag?  (I suspect that is the case)

I've seen this called as a tag, even in MLB - and I've wondered if it's a tag...or if it's simply a case of being practical, and like noumpere says, it can be very difficult to see if the ball was actually IN the glove.   Not to mention a little spirit vs letter of rule.   The Carlton Fisk play where he tagged two runners is an example where it's questionable that he had the ball "in" the glove, rather than next to it, and whether or not he touched the runners with the ball or glove or both - I think you could argue that both runners were safe....but in real time...close enough.

 

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8 minutes ago, beerguy55 said:

 

 

 

I asked if holding the hands together was enough - as Rich says - the ball in your bare hand, against the outside of the glove, and then with the hand/ball/glove together (but ball against the glove, not in it) the glove touches the runner - is that a tag, technically?   That is, under MLB replay review with slow motion high def detail, would this be ruled not a tag?  (I suspect that is the case)

I've seen this called as a tag, even in MLB - and I've wondered if it's a tag...or if it's simply a case of being practical, and like noumpere says, it can be very difficult to see if the ball was actually IN the glove.   Not to mention a little spirit vs letter of rule.   The Carlton Fisk play where he tagged two runners is an example where it's questionable that he had the ball "in" the glove, rather than next to it, and whether or not he touched the runners with the ball or glove or both - I think you could argue that both runners were safe....but in real time...close enough.

 

 

Watch closely. He gets both runners with the bare hand while it is holding the ball. It's clear as a bell in the freeze frame picture-d.

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4 minutes ago, Rich Ives said:

 

Watch closely. He gets both runners with the bare hand while it is holding the ball.

Oh, I can be sold on it, and it would never get overturned on replay...I actually think on the first runner the ball is out of the glove and that ball hand never touches the runner...the second runner I think as the he goes through he hits the ball hand.

 

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