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DharnsIV

Breakaway base question!!

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I was doing my first little league game this evening (I’ve been doing hs and travel ball) but they needed a body so I  volunteered to work. The play in question: Runner on 2nd, 1 out. R2 steals 3rd base and slides into the breakaway base. The top of the bag comes off and the runner stands up and gets off the bag without asking for time. The 3rd basemen then tags R2 and I call him out. Nobody complained about the call but I was just curious if once the bag comes off if I kill it right there or wait for a lul in the action so I can call time and fix it. 

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Wait until the play is over -- and as I read the question, it was -- the runner was safe on the steal and F5 had the ball.  Nothing to do bu fix the base.

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34 minutes ago, DharnsIV said:

I was doing my first little league game this evening (I’ve been doing hs and travel ball) but they needed a body so I  volunteered to work. The play in question: Runner on 2nd, 1 out. R2 steals 3rd base and slides into the breakaway base. The top of the bag comes off and the runner stands up and gets off the bag without asking for time. The 3rd basemen then tags R2 and I call him out. Nobody complained about the call but I was just curious if once the bag comes off if I kill it right there or wait for a lul in the action so I can call time and fix it. 

You blew it.

LL 7.08(c ) AR: (2) if the impact of a runner breaks a bag loose from its position, no play can be made on that runner at that base if the runner had reached the base safely. 

Same ruling on OBR  5.09(b)(4) Approved Ruling  (A)

If  base breaks loose keep the ball live until play is over.

Following runners have touch the spot in OBR and either the spot or the dislodged base in LL.

 

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2 hours ago, noumpere said:

Wait until the play is over -- and as I read the question, it was -- the runner was safe on the steal and F5 had the ball.  Nothing to do bu fix the base.

As soon as I called him out I was 85% sure I had gotten it wrong. But what if the ball goes into left field and the runner gets up and runs towards home? Kill it or let it play out? I hate breakaway bags!!

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@Rich Ives answered your question. You "keep the ball live until play is over." The runner who dislodged the base can't be put out at the base and following runners must touch the original spot of the base or (LL only) the base itself.

I would presume the "runner can't be put out" doesn't include any following action. For example, if the runner stood and tried to advance to the next base, then any return would require him to touch the base or original location and he's in jeopardy of being put out.

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"You blew it."  That's funny.  Rich, the guy just joined yesterday, hope he doesn't get scared off?  :) 

All in jest of course.

 

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24 minutes ago, urout17 said:

"You blew it."  That's funny.  Rich, the guy just joined yesterday, hope he doesn't get scared off?  :) 

All in jest of course.

 

yeah, but that's jest Rich

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1 hour ago, yawetag said:

@Rich Ives answered your question. You "keep the ball live until play is over." The runner who dislodged the base can't be put out at the base and following runners must touch the original spot of the base or (LL only) the base itself.

I would presume the "runner can't be put out" doesn't include any following action. For example, if the runner stood and tried to advance to the next base, then any return would require him to touch the base or original location and he's in jeopardy of being put out.

That's certainly how I would call it.   I wouldn't call him out if he panicked and wasn't sure where to be at this base (e.g., dancing between the in-ground piece and the bag, confused), but clearly trying to move up would put him in back in jeopardy.

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53 minutes ago, urout17 said:

"You blew it."  That's funny.  Rich, the guy just joined yesterday, hope he doesn't get scared off?  :) 

All in jest of course.

 

Heck no! This site is awesome! I just wish I could have found it sooner. Thanks for all your feedback, hopefully I won’t “blow it” next time haha

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1 hour ago, urout17 said:

"You blew it."  That's funny.  Rich, the guy just joined yesterday, hope he doesn't get scared off?  :) 

All in jest of course.

 

He's a new umpire. He hears it every night.

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3 hours ago, yawetag said:

@Rich Ives answered your question. You "keep the ball live until play is over." The runner who dislodged the base can't be put out at the base and following runners must touch the original spot of the base or (LL only) the base itself.

I would presume the "runner can't be put out" doesn't include any following action. For example, if the runner stood and tried to advance to the next base, then any return would require him to touch the base or original location and he's in jeopardy of being put out.

True

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The following rules are from the 2018 Little League Rules Instruction Manual prepared for the 2018 little league umpire schools with accompanying remarks for the umpire.

2018 Little League rule 7.08(c) A.R. 2—If the impact of a runner breaks a base loose from its position, no play can be made on that runner at that base if the runner had reached the base safely.

INSTRUCTOR COMMENTS:

This provision applies if the runner reaches the base safely and does not attempt to advance further.

A.R. 3—If a base is dislodged from its position during a play, any following runner on the same play shall be considered as touching or occupying the base if, in the umpire’s judgment, that runner touches or occupies the dislodged bag, or the point marked by the original location of the dislodged bag.

INSTRUCTOR COMMENTS:

The “point marked by the dislodged base” is where the base belongs, not where the base finally rests.

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7 minutes ago, Senor Azul said:

The following rules are from the 2018 Little League Rules Instruction Manual prepared for the 2018 little league umpire schools with accompanying remarks for the umpire.

2018 Little League rule 7.08(c) A.R. 2—If the impact of a runner breaks a base loose from its position, no play can be made on that runner at that base if the runner had reached the base safely.

INSTRUCTOR COMMENTS:

This provision applies if the runner reaches the base safely and does not attempt to advance further.

A.R. 3—If a base is dislodged from its position during a play, any following runner on the same play shall be considered as touching or occupying the base if, in the umpire’s judgment, that runner touches or occupies the dislodged bag, or the point marked by the original location of the dislodged bag.

INSTRUCTOR COMMENTS:

The “point marked by the dislodged base” is where the base belongs, not where the base finally rests.

This kid stood up and walked off what is the “point marked by the dislodged base. So that was my reason for calling him out. But I understand the rule and I should have just let it slide. 

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On 5/7/2019 at 11:48 PM, DharnsIV said:

 I hate breakaway bags!!

We had two broken ankles on fixed bases and then switched to breakaways before it became a LL rule.

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On 5/7/2019 at 11:48 PM, DharnsIV said:

I hate breakaway bags!!

It's a rule you should be familiar with, breakaway or not. Even on "big boy" fields a base can become dislodged. Knowing the rule applicable to the ruleset you're umpiring at the time will save you in these situations.

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39 minutes ago, yawetag said:

It's a rule you should be familiar with, breakaway or not. Even on "big boy" fields a base can become dislodged. Knowing the rule applicable to the ruleset you're umpiring at the time will save you in these situations.

OBR is similar to LL, by my reading of the rules (Rule 5.09(b)(4), AR (A) & (B).  The difference is that LL allows following runners to touch either the dislodged base or the spot where it should be anchored.  OBR only allows following runners to touch the anchoring spot.

Fed seems only to address the initial play (same as LL & OBR) in 8-4-2 h.1.  I can't find a comment on what following runners should do.

I don't have access to NCAA rules.

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There are a couple sports orthopedics who believe that more than half of the leg injuries in baseball would go away if they used breakaway bases in the upper levels. Our LL uses the Schutt Hollywood. https://beaconathletics.com/store/game-practice/baseball-softball/bases/release-bases/hollywood-kwik-release-base/?utm_campaign=google_shopping&gclid=CjwKCAjw_MnmBRAoEiwAPRRWW4zVmoVPSc26apadlrkeCPqEDl18vwOVnJ7HsI_tqFbNHH1Lar4NchoCwK4QAvD_BwE

If the base breaks away, there is a large orange square left. Slightly smaller than the base, but really obvious. it takes some substantial force to knock the base off, but less than breaking a bone. 

My son broke his leg on non-breakaway. 

Here's a study, https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/ad91/3b18460464f4561ade25a23c326093fefce3.pdf Could be a savings of $2 billion in healthcare costs annually. The bases only broke away 3% of the time during studied games (approx. 2,000) So it's not like they are flying off, willy-nilly. 

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On 5/8/2019 at 6:53 AM, DharnsIV said:

Heck no! This site is awesome! I just wish I could have found it sooner. Thanks for all your feedback, hopefully I won’t “blow it” next time haha

Rich has never blown a call, ever!!   :ph34r:

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55 minutes ago, ousafe said:

OBR is similar to LL, by my reading of the rules (Rule 5.09(b)(4), AR (A) & (B).  The difference is that LL allows following runners to touch either the dislodged base or the spot where it should be anchored.  OBR only allows following runners to touch the anchoring spot.

Fed seems only to address the initial play (same as LL & OBR) in 8-4-2 h.1.  I can't find a comment on what following runners should do.

I don't have access to NCAA rules.

NCAA Rules: http://www.ncaapublications.com/productdownloads/BA20.pdf

"If any base is dislodged from its position during a play, a runner shall be considered as touching or occupying the base if the runner touches or occupies the point originally marked by the dislodged base."

For anything above Little League, use the original spot.

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HS game, bottom of 1st, R3 on 3rd, R1 on 1st, no outs, and its possible the HT will win by a big margin (undefeated vs a 2 win team).. Due to rain (what a surprise), we are on a town field that is all turf, with bases that are NOT anchored..

Steal of 2nd to get a throw to second for a possible steal of home, i am in B.. Throw goes down, F4 alertly steps up a few steps receives the ball and guns it to third to try to get R3 diving back. as the ball is caught, R3 is heads-first sliding back to 3rd, reaches out, and I can clearly see from my angle now about two steps toward 3rd from high end of the working area that his fingers pop the base an instant before the tag is applied to his arm - bag moves, then the tag.. bang bang.. bag jumps about 3-4 inches, so i did realize that, in real time, if your eyes go from tag to hand, it looks like he didn't reach the base yet... i safe him, call time immediately, and ask for the 3rd base coach to fix the bag position..

The Defensive dugout on first base side are moaning and groaning.. DHC asks for time and asks to come out to me, I grant it.. He says something like "come on Bobby, we aren't lasting long if we can't get these obvious ones, he was obviously short on the slide, were you blocked out or something?". We are standing basically where i called it from, and I explained to him that the fingers popped the base back, and that, although the loose base created bad optics, i had it all the way and the base moved from him hitting it before the tag got down. he said Ok and walked back so i think he may have bought it, but i won't know for sure until ratings are published i guess.. Thanks loose bases...

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