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Dynatnt1

Caught ball then an overthrow

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Hi there, new to the forums. Stumbled upon it by trying to research a recent Little League situation that no one felt 100% about.

The situation is a runner on first, batter hits a line drive to shortstop, he catches it, the runner takes off from first unaware of the catch, shortstop attempts to throw back to first but overthrows out of play into the dugout. 

One coach says 2 bases on an overthrow and the runner should be on third. Opposing coach says runner never tagged up so should stay on first.

Ultimately the ump said runner should stay on first. 

Curious what everyone's thoughts are on this play.

 

Thanks!!

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11 minutes ago, Dynatnt1 said:

Hi there, new to the forums. Stumbled upon it by trying to research a recent Little League situation that no one felt 100% about.

The situation is a runner on first, batter hits a line drive to shortstop, he catches it, the runner takes off from first unaware of the catch, shortstop attempts to throw back to first but overthrows out of play into the dugout. 

One coach says 2 bases on an overthrow and the runner should be on third. Opposing coach says runner never tagged up so should stay on first.

Ultimately the ump said runner should stay on first. 

Curious what everyone's thoughts are on this play.

 

Thanks!!

Runner is awarded 3B but must retouch 1B before going. If he fails to retouch  he can be out upon a proper appeal by the defense (but not by the umpire without the proper appeal).

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Thank you. The runner never touched first but simply stopped mid-way between first and second as the ball was overthrown. His coach claimed the overthrow meant 3rd base was awarded. The runner only touched first base when the ump called the runner back to first. 

 

My whole argument was the runner never tagged up on the caught ball. I felt he should have returned to first and then when the overthrow happened been awarded 3rd base.

 

Thanks!!

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The act of fielding is not a play. So, in the OP the infielder’s first play is the act of throwing the ball to first attempting to retire the runner. Thus, the award should be two bases from the time of pitch (TOP). The following text is taken from the 2018 Little League Rules Instruction Manual.

Rule 7.05

INSTRUCTOR COMMENTS:

·        The fact a runner is awarded a base or bases without liability to be put out does not relieve him/her of the responsibility to touch the base he/she is awarded and all intervening bases. For example: batter hits a ground ball that an infielder throws into the stands but the batter-runner missed first base. If he/she fails to touch first base on his/her way to second base he/she may be called out on appeal for missing first base after the ball is put in play even though he/she was “awarded” second base.

·        If a runner is forced to return to a base after a catch, he/she must retouch his/her original base even though, because of some ground rule or other rule, he/she is awarded additional bases. He/she may retouch while the ball is dead and the award is then made from his/her original base.

 

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2 hours ago, Dynatnt1 said:

argument was the runner never tagged up on the caught ball. I felt he should have returned to first and then when the overthrow happened been awarded 3rd base.

 

No runner needs to tag up until the fly ball is caught.  You go part way, wait, then continue or return.  And for overthrow rules, the overthrow happened as soon as the ball left the fielders hand, not when it went out of play. No way you'd ever get back and tag before the overthrow happened.

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Rich,

I understand that the runner does not need to tag up until the ball is caught, but based on Senor Azul's post,

"If a runner is forced to return to a base after a catch, he/she must retouch his/her original base even though...."

In our case, the runner started to head back to first but the ball was overthrown out of play with the runner never having touched first. 

 

I didn't expect the tag up to happen before the overthrow. The overthrow happened while the runner was headed back to first but never got there. He got about 2/3's of the way back to first and then the first base coach sent him to second after the overthrow. The head coach argued that it was an overthrow and should be two bases. We argued he never touched or tagged up at first to warrant the awarded bases. 

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@Dynatnt1 I think you’re missing  the point. 

Runner on 1B.  Line out to SS. R1 is halfway between 1b and 2b.  SS airmailed the throw out of  play. 

Time is called. Runner is awarded 3b. 

Now after being awarded 3b,   the runner must return, touch 1b, then continue on to 2nd and 3rd. Yes, he can do this AFTER the ball is thrown away. 

If the runner simply goes to 3b without coming back to touch 1b AFTER the ball goes out of play,  he may be called out on proper appeal. Just like you would appeal a base missed by a runner or s base left too early on a tag up attempt. 

The bottom line here to answer your question is the runner is allowed to return and touch 1b after the ball is out of play to fulfill his base running obligations. 

Oh.... and instead of arguing you should have appealed him never retouching 1b. 

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@Richvee Yes, that's my point. The runner never returned to first. It was only after we contested it, which at that point should have been called out I guess because the other team was going to leave him at third, that he was sent back to first because we thought that was the right call.

Small technicality I guess.. Oh well, it's Little League. On to life!!!!

 

Thanks for all your inputs. Much appreciated.

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I'm missing something. Why isn't the situation in the OP a case of attempting multiple appeals? 

F6 was attempting to appeal the runner left early but threw the ball away. Isn't appealing after after the ball is made live an appeal of the same runner at the same base for the same infraction?

 

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1 hour ago, Sut'n Blue said:

 

I'm missing something. Why isn't the situation in the OP a case of attempting multiple appeals? 

F6 was attempting to appeal the runner left early but threw the ball away. Isn't appealing after after the ball is made live an appeal of the same runner at the same base for the same infraction?

 

Continuous action appeals as a result of the batted ball do not preclude another appeal. I think you have to go to the  MiLBUM/MLBUM for that interp.

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17 hours ago, Dynatnt1 said:

Rich,

I understand that the runner does not need to tag up until the ball is caught, but based on Senor Azul's post,

"If a runner is forced to return to a base after a catch, he/she must retouch his/her original base even though...."

In our case, the runner started to head back to first but the ball was overthrown out of play with the runner never having touched first. 

 

I didn't expect the tag up to happen before the overthrow. The overthrow happened while the runner was headed back to first but never got there. He got about 2/3's of the way back to first and then the first base coach sent him to second after the overthrow. The head coach argued that it was an overthrow and should be two bases. We argued he never touched or tagged up at first to warrant the awarded bases. 

Keep in mind that the runner retagging first and the 2 base award are 2 separate things. He needs to tag 1st because of the catch for an out. He is awarded 3rd because of the throw out of play. The fact that he didn't tag 1st does not change the base award. If the defense does not appeal the  tag up then he would be safe at 3rd.

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No comments on the Umpire putting the runner back on first?

As I often say, what happened after the manager Protested?

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Let's not forget the fact that, even if the umpire put him back on first and realizes the mistake and puts him back on third, the runner is still liable to be put out on a proper appeal. 

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On 5/4/2019 at 3:58 PM, Tborze said:

Let's not forget the fact that, even if the umpire put him back on first and realizes the mistake and puts him back on third, the runner is still liable to be put out on a proper appeal. 

Can you be more specific here?

If the runner is sent back to 1B initially and he touches 1B and then gets awarded 3B, that runner is not liable to be put out on appeal. He retouched his left-too-early base, so there's nothing to appeal.

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42 minutes ago, yawetag said:

Can you be more specific here?

If the runner is sent back to 1B initially and he touches 1B and then gets awarded 3B, that runner is not liable to be put out on appeal. He retouched his left-too-early base, so there's nothing to appeal.

Ball was dead. Can't legally retouch. 

 

On May 2, 2019 at 2:29 PM, Dynatnt1 said:

Thank you. The runner never touched first but simply stopped mid-way between first and second as the ball was overthrown. His coach claimed the overthrow meant 3rd base was awarded. The runner only touched first base when the ump called the runner back to first. 

 

My whole argument was the runner never tagged up on the caught ball. I felt he should have returned to first and then when the overthrow happened been awarded 3rd base.

 

Thanks!!

 

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1 hour ago, Tborze said:

 

Ball was dead. Can't legally retouch. 

 

 

Can you give me a rule cite for this claim?

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30 minutes ago, Mussgrass said:

The runner absolutely can legally retouch, as long as he hadn't passed 2nd base.

 

 

7 minutes ago, yawetag said:

Can you give me a rule cite for this claim?

R1 didn't retouch after he was awarded 3rd.  

 

On May 2, 2019 at 11:02 PM, Dynatnt1 said:

@Richvee Yes, that's my point. The runner never returned to first. It was only after we contested it, which at that point should have been called out I guess because the other team was going to leave him at third, that he was sent back to first because we thought that was the right call.

Small technicality I guess.. Oh well, it's Little League. On to life!!!!

 

Thanks for all your inputs. Much appreciated.

 

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After reading the thread again, I feel like there's confusion on what everyone is referring to and I can see why @Tborze is saying what he is.

This is how I now see the situation and @Dynatnt1 can confirm or deny (with a full situation if I'm wrong):

  1. R1, less than two outs
  2. Line drive to F6, who catches the ball.
  3. F6 attempts to throw to F3 while R1 advances to 2B (not knowing the ball was caught).
  4. Throw goes OOP.
  5. Umpire initially awards R1 two bases and sends him to 3B.
    1. R1 advances to 3B without retouching 1B.
  6. Coaches argue the award
    1. Umpire returns R1 (now R3) to 1B
    2. R1 goes back to 1B (no idea on what direction he took to get there - but it really doesn't matter at this point).
  7. Umpire changes his mind again and sends R1 BACK to 3B
    1. R1 goes back to 3B

IF that's the situation, then I've got R1 out on appeal, but ONLY because he didn't retouch on the original award. IF he had originally retouched and then screwed up something during the merry-go-round that occurred, I'm not penalizing him for that.

When I first read @Tborze's post and questioned him on his post on Saturday, my understanding was that umpire actions in #5 and #6 were switched and the umpire initially sent him back to 1B and THEN awarded 3B. In that case, @Tborze's "he can still be out on appeal" would have been incorrect. But, because R1 was sent to 3B initially and (seemingly) advanced without retouching, @Tborze's statement was correct - the runner did not retouch during the dead ball so would be out on appeal.

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@yawetag #7 was not in the OP,  recognizing the mistake and putting him back on 3rd was mine, making the point that the runner would still be liable to be put out on appeal. In the OP the Umpire put him on 1st and left him there, which we know was not correct. 

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57 minutes ago, yawetag said:

After reading the thread again, I feel like there's confusion on what everyone is referring to and I can see why @Tborze is saying what he is.

This is how I now see the situation and @Dynatnt1 can confirm or deny (with a full situation if I'm wrong):

  1. R1, less than two outs
  2. Line drive to F6, who catches the ball.
  3. F6 attempts to throw to F3 while R1 advances to 2B (not knowing the ball was caught).
  4. Throw goes OOP.
  5. Umpire initially awards R1 two bases and sends him to 3B.
    1. R1 advances to 3B without retouching 1B.
  6. Coaches argue the award
    1. Umpire returns R1 (now R3) to 1B
    2. R1 goes back to 1B (no idea on what direction he took to get there - but it really doesn't matter at this point).
  7. Umpire changes his mind again and sends R1 BACK to 3B
    1. R1 goes back to 3B

IF that's the situation, then I've got R1 out on appeal, but ONLY because he didn't retouch on the original award. IF he had originally retouched and then screwed up something during the merry-go-round that occurred, I'm not penalizing him for that.

When I first read @Tborze's post and questioned him on his post on Saturday, my understanding was that umpire actions in #5 and #6 were switched and the umpire initially sent him back to 1B and THEN awarded 3B. In that case, @Tborze's "he can still be out on appeal" would have been incorrect. But, because R1 was sent to 3B initially and (seemingly) advanced without retouching, @Tborze's statement was correct - the runner did not retouch during the dead ball so would be out on appeal.

Thanks for all the feedback. This is still a big discussion at the Little League fields and is about 50/50 there.

Yes, @yawetageverything you said minus #7 was correct. He was on 3rd and we said he never touched the bag at first so the ump sent him back to first permanently. 

Seems like most think he should have touched first after the ball went out of play on his own accord or his coaches instruction, not rather by the ump or opposing team sending him back.

 

Thanks all!!!

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8 minutes ago, Dynatnt1 said:

Thanks for all the feedback. This is still a big discussion at the Little League fields and is about 50/50 there.

Yes, @yawetageverything you said minus #7 was correct. He was on 3rd and we said he never touched the bag at first so the ump sent him back to first permanently. 

Seems like most think he should have touched first after the ball went out of play on his own accord or his coaches instruction, not rather by the ump or opposing team sending him back.

 

Thanks all!!!

50/50?

Coaches/umpires

parents/umpires

umpires/umpires

Are you aware of, or understand what the correct ruling should have been?  Do you now know what to do if/when it happens again? 

There should be no 50/50 here!

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@Tborze 50/50 between a few parents involved heavily in the league and fellow coaches. Haven't really polled the other umps.

From what I gathered from all the comments here, the runner should have touched first and then been awarded 3rd. It seems as though since he didn't and we contested it, he should have been called out but we let him just return to first. 

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OK, removing #7 from the situation.

I've still got R1 out if his missing first base was appealed. His return (#6-1) isn't a legal retouch for a couple of reasons, one of which is crappy umpiring. And @Tborze was correct that he could be out on an appeal.

Pack it up, boys.

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