Caught ball then an overthrow

[Biscuit]

Just now, Dynatnt1 said:

@Tborze 50/50 between a few parents involved heavily in the league and fellow coaches. Haven't really polled the other umps.

From what I gathered from all the comments here, the runner should have touched first and then been awarded 3rd. It seems as though since he didn't and we contested it, he should have been called out but we let him just return to first. 

Not quite. He should've been awarded third, and then retouched first before he went to second, then third. If he went straight to second then third, then he now has third, but a proper appeal at first would get him out. Either way, he should never have been sent back to first.

My question to the group is, if he goes to third without retouching, what do you say to the DHC when he comes out and says he never retouched first? You don't tell him to appeal it do you?

[Tborze]

4 minutes ago, Dynatnt1 said:

@Tborze 50/50 between a few parents involved heavily in the league and fellow coaches. Haven't really polled the other umps.

From what I gathered from all the comments here, the runner should have touched first and then been awarded 3rd. It seems as though since he didn't and we contested it, he should have been called out but we let him just return to first. 

The runner should have touched first "after" he was awarded 3rd. He should have been called out "after" a proper appeal was made, which would need to be done after the ball was made live!  

[Dynatnt1]

2 minutes ago, Tborze said:

The runner should have touched first "after" he was awarded 3rd. He should have been called out "after" a proper appeal was made, which would need to be done after the ball was made live!  

So I guess our fault was appealing before the ball went live? What makes the ball live? Next pitch? Time called? Not sure on that.

Because of our early appeal, the runner went back to first and only because of our appeal. 

[yawetag]

31 minutes ago, Biscuit said:

My question to the group is, if he goes to third without retouching, what do you say to the DHC when he comes out and says he never retouched first? You don't tell him to appeal it do you?

"John, If you feel he missed a base, then you can appeal that when the ball is live."

Alternatively: "I can't rule on appeals when the ball is dead, John."

Or ask if he's appealing if the rules allow a dead-ball appeal.

[Tborze]

32 minutes ago, Dynatnt1 said:

So I guess our fault was appealing before the ball went live? What makes the ball live? Next pitch? Time called? Not sure on that.

Because of our early appeal, the runner went back to first and only because of our appeal. 

Ball becomes live when pitcher is on mound, catcher and batter is in position. Umpire SHOULD put ball back in play deeming it live. Have pitcher legally step off rubber and appeal to the umpire who is responsible for making the call. "Mr. Umpire Sir, I would like to appeal that the runner on 3rd didn't retouch 1st after the catch".  Then throw it to F3 or F5, or walk it over and touch the bag (at 1st) or the runner himself (F5)

In LL I don't believe there are dead ball appeals. 

In your case, a protest may not have helped, as someone mentioned earlier I think. If you protested, the umpire would have returned the runner BACK to 3rd, by rule. You would have THEN had to properly appeal as mentioned above. Which you probably wouldn't have done correctly, but then again, it seems the umpire wouldn't have known either

You probably thought, hey, he's at 1st now and not 3rd. We'll take that

The offensive coach probably thought, hey, we still have a runner, we'll take that

[Biscuit]

52 minutes ago, Dynatnt1 said:

So I guess our fault was appealing before the ball went live? What makes the ball live? Next pitch? Time called? Not sure on that.

Because of our early appeal, the runner went back to first and only because of our appeal. 

Unless your league allows dead ball verbal appeals (as in high school), you never appealed the play. The ball is live when the pitcher has engaged the rubber in a legal pitching position, the batter takes his spot in the batters box, and the umpire puts the ball in play (usually will point at the pitcher and say "play"). If the next pitch is delivered, you lose your opportunity to appeal, or protest, for that matter. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe once the runner passes second, he has lost his ability to correct his base running error, but if the ball was live he could still correct it. Regardless, should not have been sent back to first. He should've stayed at third, and then you have the opportunity to appeal. 

To appeal, once the ball is put back in play, your pitcher should throw the ball to first, while not balking in the process, or disengage and run the ball to first. Honestly, at the level of ball you have, I'd probably teach my kids to run it to first. 

Of course, if your umpire let this situation happen, I doubt he's putting the ball back in play correctly, nor would he know how to handle your appeal... If you care, that's when you protest

EDIT: Tborzeg sniped me by a matter of seconds...

[Tborze]

36 minutes ago, yawetag said:

"John, If you feel he missed a base, then you can appeal that when the ball is live."

Alternatively: "I can't rule on appeals when the ball is dead, John."

Or ask if he's appealing if the rules allow a dead-ball appeal.

How do you feel about this...

coach: he didn't retouch, blue

ump: you have to make a proper appeal coach

coach:how do I do that?

ump: the ball has to be made live coach

coach: how do I do that blue?

ump: explain:pitcher etc...

coach: then what do I do blue? 

ump: he must legally disengage the rubber.

And so on...but only for a minute.

Since he's asking rules questions, would you answer?  

[mw94]

ump: he must legally disengage the rubber.

 

WRONG. Pitcher does Not have to step off on an appeal play

[yawetag]

1 hour ago, Tborze said:

How do you feel about this...

coach: he didn't retouch, blue

ump: you have to make a proper appeal coach

coach:how do I do that?

At this point: "According to the rules, John."

I'm not out there to make an instructional on appeals. My responses never said the appeal was going to lead to an out or not, just that he has a way to deal with that missed (or not-retouched) base.

[Richvee]

On 5/6/2019 at 12:50 PM, Dynatnt1 said:

@Tborze 50/50 between a few parents involved heavily in the league and fellow coaches. Haven't really polled the other umps.

From what I gathered from all the comments here, the runner should have touched first and then been awarded 3rd. It seems as though since he didn't and we contested it, he should have been called out but we let him just return to first. 

Close. 

1. The runner should have been awarded 3b. The runner should have retouched 1b and ran the bases (2B then to 3b) on his own. 

2. If he goes to 3b without retouching 1b, the opposing team must execute a proper appeal of the runner leaving 1b early. The coaches “ contesting” does not constitute a proper appeal. ( let’s not muddy the waters here with FED and dead ball appeals). 

If I’m umpiring this game,  I award R1 3b. If he doesn’t retouch, and the opposing coaches start in on me, all you getting from me is “ the award is 2 bases from his position time of pitch “. Nothing else. It is up to the defense to know how to conduct the proper appeal. 

[Larry in TN]

There is no situation where the runner is properly sent back to 1B by the umpire.  

The award is 3B.  It is up to the runner, and his coaches, to legally complete the award by retouching 1B, touching 2B, then touching 3B.  If the runner fails to legally complet the award then he is liable to be put-out on proper appeal.  It is up to the defense to know how to execute the appeal.

 

[Mussgrass]

I will say up front that someone will tell me not to make stuff up.

The league I ump for is a 9-12 rec league, as "rec" as it can get. We do not play under Fed rules, I can say that much. I inform the coaches up front that I will allow verbal appeals for missed bases and leaving early, etc. My thinking is at this level it is an instructional league (for coaches and players) and if someone notices a baserunning infraction and points it out that is more important than the OBR appeal gymnastics. If the kids play ball at the next level it will be under Fed rules anyway.

[Biscuit]

9 hours ago, Mussgrass said:

I will say up front that someone will tell me not to make stuff up.

The league I ump for is a 9-12 rec league, as "rec" as it can get. We do not play under Fed rules, I can say that much. I inform the coaches up front that I will allow verbal appeals for missed bases and leaving early, etc. My thinking is at this level it is an instructional league (for coaches and players) and if someone notices a baserunning infraction and points it out that is more important than the OBR appeal gymnastics. If the kids play ball at the next level it will be under Fed rules anyway.

And I'm here to tell you l, don't make stuff up. Do I think instructional leagues should have verbal appeals? Yes, I do. That being said, you get one of "those" coaches, they protest the appeal, you're going to lose. It's not worth it for you. Just don't do it.

[Mussgrass]

14 hours ago, Biscuit said:

And I'm here to tell you l, don't make stuff up. Do I think instructional leagues should have verbal appeals? Yes, I do. That being said, you get one of "those" coaches, they protest the appeal, you're going to lose. It's not worth it for you. Just don't do it.

What's a protest? It is a rec league that is as good old boy as it gets. Don't get me wrong, it is great for the kids. It only costs them $25.00 a player for the 12 game season plus double elimination playoffs.

But it is very loosely organized and administered. I am the only umpire that wears a uniform and uses their own gear. The rest are use the pillow, mask and shins that are kept at each field.We get $20.00 for the plate and $10.00 for the bases, paid out of concession money. It is really just community service when you break it down like that.

[ArchAngel72]

On 5/2/2019 at 1:30 PM, Rich Ives said:

Runner is awarded 3B but must retouch 1B before going. If he fails to retouch  he can be out upon a proper appeal by the defense (but not by the umpire without the proper appeal).

The way I understand it is runner must "tag up" and touch 1st but if he/she already touched 2nd he may not go back and retouch 1st.  Thus awarded 3rd but a proper appeal to 1st makes them out.  

 

 

Edit: Ugh I should have read the whole thread yeah..