Throw to first

[Guest Luis]

If the runner and the trow to first base get there at the same time. It si out or safe?

[wolfe_man]

9 minutes ago, Guest Luis said:

If the runner and the trow to first base get there at the same time. It si out or safe?

It's umpire judgment.  Very seldom is there a situation where both runner and ball get to the base at the exact same time.  In baseball, there is no rule that dictates "tie goes to the runner" as many believe in error. 

If it's truly a bang-bang play, then the umpire will use his judgment to determine the call.  He may choose to reward the player for hustling... or he may reward the defense if they made a great play, but either way it will be an umpire judgment call.

[yawetag]

Some will use the following OBR rule as a basis: 5.01(a)(1): A runner acquires the right to an unoccupied base when he touches it before he is out

Taking that literally, some umpires believe the runner has to beat the throw, so a "tie" would go to the defense.

In the end, it's all about your judgment.

[Jimurray]

37 minutes ago, yawetag said:

Some will use the following OBR rule as a basis: 5.01(a)(1): A runner acquires the right to an unoccupied base when he touches it before he is out

Taking that literally, some umpires believe the runner has to beat the throw, so a "tie" would go to the defense.

In the end, it's all about your judgment.

Close Call Sports has a great analysis that refutes that conclusion. And within this website @beerguy55 has done a pretty good job also.

[Rich Ives]

A tie DOES go to the runner at first base and for force plays. The only possible umpiring issue is whether or not a tie is possible. Trying to redefine the meaning of “before” sometimes enters the discussion too.

 5.09(a)(10) A batter is out when—

After a third strike or after he hits a fair ball, he or first base is tagged before he touches first base;

Same here:

 5.09(b)(6) Any runner is out when—

He or the next base is tagged before he touches the next base, after he has been forced to advance by reason of the batter becoming a runner.

 So if it's a tie, he or the base was not tagged before he touched the base so he's safe.

As you can see, a tie DOES go to the runner BY RULE!

 People are so locked into their perception that the phrase is a myth that they can’t accept what is in black and white in the rule book.

[noumpere]

21 minutes ago, yawetag said:

Some will use the following OBR rule as a basis: 5.01(a)(1): A runner acquires the right to an unoccupied base when he touches it before he is out

 

But , a runner is out when first base is touched BEFORE the runner arrives (or words to that effect) -- so a tie goes to the runner.

[Rich Ives]

22 minutes ago, yawetag said:

Some will use the following OBR rule as a basis: 5.01(a)(1): A runner acquires the right to an unoccupied base when he touches it before he is out

Taking that literally, some umpires believe the runner has to beat the throw, so a "tie" would go to the defense.

In the end, it's all about your judgment.

That rule got changed several years ago.

[urout17]

In a FED game or lower a tie always goes to the umpire.....

[Guest NE UMP]

In my opinion for a runner to be safe he has to beat the throw to the base (or touch a base before he is tagged).  These plays are so close I believe it's better to be consistent and call the out every time.  If two separate plays are so close they almost look identical (even though you may hear the foot or the ball first) I believe you'll get less arguments if you call them both outs.  For me the runner has to beat the ball, there are no ties.

[noumpere]

10 minutes ago, Guest NE UMP said:

In my opinion for a runner to be safe he has to beat the throw to the base (or touch a base before he is tagged).  These plays are so close I believe it's better to be consistent and call the out every time.  If two separate plays are so close they almost look identical (even though you may hear the foot or the ball first) I believe you'll get less arguments if you call them both outs.  For me the runner has to beat the ball, there are no ties.

That's the proper application only in NFHS leagues where the DH and the player being DH'd for can be on the field at the same time AND where the F1 can re-enter in a different spot in the order.

[wolfe_man]

Wow...

Can we all just agree it's umpire judgment? 

It's umpire judgment as to what the umpire thinks/believes happened, since we don't allow instant replay and go back to check the video.  We make the best decision we can with the information we have.  If the runner gets to the base first, we let them occupy it... if we think the ball was a millionth of a second faster, then we bang them out.

I feel like I'm trying to explain why the prime rate is too high for our current economic climate.  Is it really this difficult?

[Jimurray]

15 minutes ago, Guest NE UMP said:

In my opinion for a runner to be safe he has to beat the throw to the base (or touch a base before he is tagged).  These plays are so close I believe it's better to be consistent and call the out every time.  If two separate plays are so close they almost look identical (even though you may hear the foot or the ball first) I believe you'll get less arguments if you call them both outs.  For me the runner has to beat the ball, there are no ties.

Luckily you probably won't encounter a coach who would protest and be correct if you said the runner was out because he didn't beat the ball at 1B. Better to say the ball beat the runner. But at other bases if a tag hits the runner's foot at the same time as the foot just touched the base are you saying he's out because he didn't touch the base BEFORE?

[noumpere]

20 minutes ago, noumpere said:

That's the proper application only in NFHS leagues where the DH and the player being DH'd for can be on the field at the same time AND where the F1 can re-enter in a different spot in the order.

A kinder answer:

You are entitled to your opinion, just recognize that it's contrary to the written rule.  And, while the rules used to be in conflict between first and a force-out at other bases, the (OBR) rules committee made the rules the same a few years ago.  That they chose the way they did (they easily could have chosen the "tie goes to the defense" alternative), should tell you how to rule on this play.

And, while consistency is important -- it's of much less value when it's consistently wrong.

So, work as hard as you can to see the sometimes infinitesimally small timing differences, and not see so many "ties" and make your calls based on what you do see and not some opinion for the sake of consistency.

 

[Thunderheads]

1 hour ago, Rich Ives said:

A tie DOES go to the runner at first base and for force plays. The only possible umpiring issue is whether or not a tie is possible. Trying to redefine the meaning of “before” sometimes enters the discussion too.

 5.09(a)(10) A batter is out when—

After a third strike or after he hits a fair ball, he or first base is tagged before he touches first base;

Same here:

 5.09(b)(6) Any runner is out when—

He or the next base is tagged before he touches the next base, after he has been forced to advance by reason of the batter becoming a runner.

 So if it's a tie, he or the base was not tagged before he touched the base so he's safe.

As you can see, a tie DOES go to the runner BY RULE!

 People are so locked into their perception that the phrase is a myth that they can’t accept what is in black and white in the rule book.

Who are "people" ??  I don't see anyone claiming it's a myth

What I DO SEE however, is that the phrase "tie goes to the runner" isn't verbatim in the rule book.   This statement and what's being discussed is different.

[Mudisfun]

Bottom line here is this... I have worked with guys, who no matter what, in a play that is super bang, bang, will always default to safe. I have worked with the other guy on the same play who will always default to out.

End of the day, a human being, with his own perceptions, internal processing and personal bias to judge an event in a particular fashion is going to make his call. You can discuss the rule on paper, and we can all agree, but on the field, and without the benefit of a camera and super slow motion, 20,000 frame a second reply, you are going to get the call that you get. 

 

[Richvee]

1 hour ago, Guest NE UMP said:

In my opinion for a runner to be safe he has to beat the throw to the base (or touch a base before he is tagged).  These plays are so close I believe it's better to be consistent and call the out every time.  If two separate plays are so close they almost look identical (even though you may hear the foot or the ball first) I believe you'll get less arguments if you call them both outs.  For me the runner has to beat the ball, there are no ties.

Not a factor, and should never be a factor. Are you calling the "expected outcomes"" on tag plays? Ball beats runner, runner does a nice swim move to avoid the tag, do you call an out because "everyone saw the ball beat him there" and an out call will cause less arguments? 

Call what you see. Only thing going through your mind at the tie of the call was what you see and hear. Everything else is noise getting in the way of the right call. 

[Rich Ives]

1 hour ago, Thunderheads said:

Who are "people" ??  I don't see anyone claiming it's a myth

What I DO SEE however, is that the phrase "tie goes to the runner" isn't verbatim in the rule book.   This statement and what's being discussed is different.

QED

Go back and read the ones denying it via the excuse that the rules don't actually say "tie goes to the runner".  It is easily proven true. 

[yawetag]

3 hours ago, Rich Ives said:

That rule got changed several years ago.

That's copied word-for-word from the 2019 rule book on the MLB website.

[Rich Ives]

1 minute ago, yawetag said:

That's copied word-for-word from the 2019 rule book on the MLB website.

That just says he owns the base if he gets there before he is out. Read  the rule I posted. It's the one the defines when he becomes out. 

 

[yawetag]

Not arguing what rules we posted. Just arguing that the 5.01 rule I posted isn't "changed" for 2019.

I'll still stand by basing it on your judgment.

[Thunderheads]

20 minutes ago, Rich Ives said:

QED

Go back and read the ones denying it via the excuse that the rules don't actually say "tie goes to the runner".  It is easily proven true. 

THE PHRASE "VERBATIM" IS INDEED A MYTH .... it doesn't exist .....however, one can infer that the concept of that phrase holds true based on definitions.  I only see ONE comment by wolfe_man, and I believe he's saying that the comment verbatim doesn't exist.  It's probably semantics, but .....se la vie

[beerguy55]

I'll add my $0.02 (again).

Yes - there are people who believe the words "tie goes to the runner" are in the rules - they are not.  "the batter broke his wrists" isn't in the rule book either.  It's neither here nor there.

I prefer the language in FED and in most (all?) codes of softball that say that the runner is out if tagged while not in contact with the base.  That language absolutely means the tie goes to the runner, even if not said verbatim.  And I believe - pure opinion and speculation coming - that this has always been the spirit of the rule of baseball from its very beginning - if you're touching the (correct) base you're safe, if you're not you're not.  I speculate that over the years the writers have outsmarted themselves in trying to clarify and rewrite the language of the rule book.

 

Having said all that, it's pretty much moot beyond the academic debate (which I do find very interesting) - if you are a coach running out and actually arguing with an umpire that it was a tie you are an idiot.   On a banger play you shouldn't be arguing at all, let alone that it was actually a tie.  And no umpire in their right mind is going to tell you it was a tie (and then argue whether or not a tie is an out or safe).   

If the play's that close even an incompetent ump is going to be right 50% of the time - because at that point it's guesswork anyway - it's guesswork for an amateur umpire and it's guesswork for the coaches and players.  To go out and claim it was a tie?!?!?