Jump to content
ofhs93

Preferred starting position in B and C with infield pulled in.

Recommended Posts

Ok...Infield in to cut a run down at the plate....we are starting in C. I have always in the past pinched in closer to the center of the mound and moved a cpl steps deeper than normal so that I can be sure to not impede F6 or F5 cutting across on a ground ball. I had a partner last night saying that I need to get deeper and behind the middle infielders in the dirt area so that if a ball hits me we can keep it live. Now I'm not an Olympic athlete but I can also move fairly well I think. I tried getting as deep as he suggested and found myself feeling very much out of position to make any quick call and and also felt like I was fighting with R2 to not be impeding his lead or movements....and I would certainly be in NO position to confidently call a pickoff at 3B if that were to happen. Can people chime in on this? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Our initial position in the infield (read: in B or C) is vitally important. A good guideline is to stay in your normal position until asked to move. With that said, if F4/6 is basically in my back pocket, I'd take a step or maybe two to the right or left as I see fit. However, you want to stay as close to your normal position as possible. I greatly dislike the idea of taking six steps backwards to get behind the infielders. Now you're wayyyyy out of position, as you said, and you're going to have your work cut out for you trying to get back into the working area or gain any distance towards first base. 

Quote

I had a partner last night saying that I need to get deeper and behind the middle infielders in the dirt area so that if a ball hits me we can keep it live.

This logic is flawed. With the infielders playing their normal position you're in front of them, so if the ball hits you it's dead. Does that mean we set up in the outfield with the infield playing back? Of course not! So why should we put ourselves out of position just because the infield in playing in? We shouldn't. 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There's no "one size fits all" answer for this.  It depends on how far in F6 comes (at some point, you have to go behind him), the level of play, how well you move, the likelihood of a back pick to F5 (but as long as you are in front of the 2b-3b baseline you'll have a pretty good view -- and if you are still "in" F6 might block you), etc.

 

Maybe PU just read the specific situation differently than you read it.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Our position on the field is based on the probability of where the next play is or the best coverage will be. When the bases are loaded and the infield is in, I go to a deep B position, same position as U3 would use in three man with R1 only. This spot gets you out of the way. It puts you in a great position to see all infield action. It allows you to easily adjust for the next play at first on the BR after they throw the ball home to get R3. This is an "advanced" mechanic and I wouldn't recommend it to newer umpires.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I go deep, too.

I used to hold my ground or move a step or two left/right as needed. I found myself scrambling more on grounders, to get into a position that's out of anyone's throwing path to a base and a great angle on the play. Plus, it gets me out of the way on any attempt by F6 (who is usually the one closest in these situations) to field a ball.

I've worked with partners with varying degrees of opinions and have never seen a mechanics book speak of this situation.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Stk004 said:

Our initial position in the infield (read: in B or C) is vitally important. A good guideline is to stay in your normal position until asked to move. With that said, if F4/6 is basically in my back pocket, I'd take a step or maybe two to the right or left as I see fit. However, you want to stay as close to your normal position as possible. I greatly dislike the idea of taking six steps backwards to get behind the infielders. Now you're wayyyyy out of position, as you said, and you're going to have your work cut out for you trying to get back into the working area or gain any distance towards first base. 

This logic is flawed. With the infielders playing their normal position you're in front of them, so if the ball hits you it's dead. Does that mean we set up in the outfield with the infield playing back? Of course not! So why should we put ourselves out of position just because the infield in playing in? We shouldn't. 

Ok...I'm glad to see all of this....the partner in question has more experience than I do and I thought maybe I had missed something along the line that I wasn't aware of....It didn't make sense at the time, but I wasn't going to question the more experienced guy. I'll go back to exactly how I have always done it as that appears to be the correct approach. Lesson learned....just because someone has been doing it longer doesn't mean they have been doing it right.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, yawetag said:

I go deep, too.

I used to hold my ground or move a step or two left/right as needed. I found myself scrambling more on grounders, to get into a position that's out of anyone's throwing path to a base and a great angle on the play. Plus, it gets me out of the way on any attempt by F6 (who is usually the one closest in these situations) to field a ball.

I've worked with partners with varying degrees of opinions and have never seen a mechanics book speak of this situation.

It's surprising with ALL of the mechanics manuals and directions and various mechanics versions out in the ether that none of them seem to address this very common situation...As stated...I *do* get a little deeper...I would say 2-3 steps behind my normal start position....and pinch to the center a cpl steps....that keeps me out of the immediate way of F6 if the ball were to be hit directly at me and I open the gate...I would say it puts me maybe 6-8  feet forward of F6 and to his left, assuming he has his feet right at the front of the dirt. The partner last night was suggesting me to go WAY deep though....as in behind the baseline....THAT absolutely didn't make sense to me and I instantly knew it was putting me out of position for any number of situations that could have occurred. On the 3-4 times I felt like I had to setup there, after he spoke to me halfway through the game, my skin was crawling lol.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I guess it depends on F6's location. The other day, I was working with one that wanted to stand next to me when I was in C, so I felt like going back to the cutout was my safest option.

If he's just in at the cutout, I'll stay in my position with slight adjustments if needed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, ofhs93 said:

It's surprising with ALL of the mechanics manuals and directions and various mechanics versions out in the ether that none of them seem to address this very common situation...As stated...I *do* get a little deeper...I would say 2-3 steps behind my normal start position....and pinch to the center a cpl steps....that keeps me out of the immediate way of F6 if the ball were to be hit directly at me and I open the gate...I would say it puts me maybe 6-8  feet forward of F6 and to his left, assuming he has his feet right at the front of the dirt. The partner last night was suggesting me to go WAY deep though....as in behind the baseline....THAT absolutely didn't make sense to me and I instantly knew it was putting me out of position for any number of situations that could have occurred. On the 3-4 times I felt like I had to setup there, after he spoke to me halfway through the game, my skin was crawling lol.

A 2011 PBUC manual pdf I stumbled upon somewhere on the internet has this wording whenever there is an R3 and the infield is playing on the edge of the grass: "The base umpire should position himself slightly behind the shortstop and 8-10 feet to the shortstops left." 

Whether that's how they train currently at TUS I don't know.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

UTA ( formerly TUS) teaches to stay in your normal starting position. If asked to move by a fielder, move left or right as needed. You can find this information in the bases loaded section (part 2 expanded version) of the MiLB Manual for the Two-Umpire System.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Jimurray said:

A 2011 PBUC manual pdf I stumbled upon somewhere on the internet has this wording whenever there is an R3 and the infield is playing on the edge of the grass: "The base umpire should position himself slightly behind the shortstop and 8-10 feet to the shortstops left." 

Whether that's how they train currently at TUS I don't know.

That's where I've ended up in this situation in our 50/70 LL division.  I like that it lets me read F6 as well as the ball after it's hit.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, JonnyCat said:

UTA ( formerly TUS) teaches to stay in your normal starting position. If asked to move by a fielder, move left or right as needed. You can find this information in the bases loaded section (part 2 expanded version) of the MiLB Manual for the Two-Umpire System.

And how do they advise what to do if you are between the SS and the ball?  Do they run a drill with the SS charging and you being where he and the ball might meet?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Jimurray said:

And how do they advise what to do if you are between the SS and the ball?  Do they run a drill with the SS charging and you being where he and the ball might meet?

Honestly, we never ran a drill with this particular situation, but we did run drills where you had to adjust to the fielder and ball. They were big on footwork and being able to move to a position where you could square up to the fielder and then drop step either left or right depending on where the fielder threw the ball. They said sometimes you just have to get out of the way of the ball or fielder and adjust to the situation. UTA felt that starting positioning was critical in getting your proper angles to make the call in different situations. They didn't want to give up what they felt was the optimum starting position.

One of their big principles was that the 2 man system has its limitations, but they felt their methodology put you in the best positioning for the majority of the plays that will happen in any given baseball game. That was the rational behind their teachings. They felt that playing deep in this situation would put you at a disadvantage for many of the plays that commonly occur with the infield in.In what ever they taught, they felt that their positioning was the most advantageous for the 2 man system. Give up a little bit instead of a lot. I hope that makes sense.

Although in this situation, I do practice what UTA teaches, but I'm not 100% sold on this positioning. It does feel uncomfortable at times, but even with that, I still prefer it over deep B or C.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There's really one play BU has to worry about with the infield in - a throw to 1B.

Yes, weird things can happen, but an infielder playing in has - in most cases - two plans in their head: throw home, throw to first. If bases were loaded, they might be throwing to 3B, but setting yourself deep isn't taking away any view of that play, either.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The Evans manual has U2 in C, but with fielders in:

"If the infield is playing in near the edge of the grass for a possible play at the plate, it will be necessary for the base umpire to move back toward the cut-out at second and adjust forward  toward the working area when the ball is hit."

 

 

 

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

U2? That is the 2nd base umpire. U1 deep might make sense with fielders in, but I have never adjusted backwards from C to deep C just because fielders were playing in. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, ilyazhito said:

U2? That is the 2nd base umpire. U1 deep might make sense with fielders in, but I have never adjusted backwards from C to deep C just because fielder's were playing in. 

I think FED does or used to call the PU U1, thus the BU U2 in 2 man. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Were talking 2 man...

U1, U2, the guy not working the plate, they guy in the field calling the bases... whatever nomenclature you want to call him/her.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I use U1 (first-base umpire) for the sake of consistency between all umpire systems (except one-man, where the lone umpire is the plate umpire). This is what the CCA, MiLB, and MLB umpire manuals use. I was never taught to move back if fielders are playing deep, and none of my associations use NFHS 2-man (or 3-man, in the playoffs) mechanics. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, ilyazhito said:

I use U1 (first-base umpire) for the sake of consistency between all umpire systems (except one-man, where the lone umpire is the plate umpire). This is what the CCA, MiLB, and MLB umpire manuals use. I was never taught to move back if fielders are playing deep, and none of my associations use NFHS 2-man (or 3-man, in the playoffs) mechanics. 

It's clear what @Mudisfun was saying. Some mechanics suggest the BU move back when the infield is playing in. Why quibble about what that ump is called. LL also calls the PU U1 and the BU U2 in 2 man. The quote from Evans makes it clear though:

""If the infield is playing in near the edge of the grass for a possible play at the plate, it will be necessary for the base umpire to move back toward the cut-out at second and adjust forward  toward the working area when the ball is hit."

The Evans manual has been touted as one of the best for 2 man. If and when you acquire it will you take his advice with the infielders playing in?

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What is the purpose of Evans telling U1 to back up to the cutout with infielders playing in, and then come back in to the working area? AFAIK, being in a normal B or C position would be enough to avoid interfering with the infielders in most cases. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 hours ago, ilyazhito said:

What is the purpose of Evans telling U1 to back up to the cutout with infielders playing in, and then come back in to the working area? AFAIK, being in a normal B or C position would be enough to avoid interfering with the infielders in most cases

You can avoid the fielders in more cases by moving back.  And, you'll have plenty of time to make it to the working area if the ball is put in play.  At least in pro ball, you won't be giving up on too many pick-off angles by moving back (that *might* be different in youth ball where there are more pick-off attempts in these types of situations).

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 4/6/2019 at 8:03 PM, ilyazhito said:

What is the purpose of Evans telling U1 to back up to the cutout with infielders playing in, and then come back in to the working area? AFAIK, being in a normal B or C position would be enough to avoid interfering with the infielders in most cases. 

I can easily see a situation where a pulled in, charging F6 could have issues with me if I'm in C. Bounding ball hit right at you....you could open the gate and he could be barreling down right on you. Moving closer to the cutout should avoid that potential issue...and still has you close enough so that you can get to a good position to make confident calls from the working area.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...