Multiple appeals

[Steven Tyler]

I haven't umped in awhile due to health issues.

My question.  Runners on first and third.  No outs.  Batter hits a long deep fly ball to center that is run down and caught.  Both runners thinking the ball wasn't caught take off.  When the ball comes in the defense first appeals the out at first and the runner is ruled out.  They then appeal the runner at third left early?  Is this considered an intervening play or time play and does the run score from 3rd?

[MadMax]

1 hour ago, Steven Tyler said:

Runners on first and third.  No outs.  Batter hits a long deep fly ball to center that is run down and caught. 

Okay, so there's the first out. BR out on the caught fly ball. Everything from here on is a time play.

1 hour ago, Steven Tyler said:

Both runners thinking the ball wasn't caught take off.  When the ball comes in the defense first appeals the out at first and the runner is ruled out.

Okay, so there's the second out. This is a live, "natural" appeal, and one of the umpires observed that R1 didn't properly tag up, and is ruled out.

Now, likely by this point in time, R3 has crossed the plate and scored.

1 hour ago, Steven Tyler said:

They then appeal the runner at third left early? 

Are you asking if they did? If the defense ignores it, then the run scores. If they keep the ball live, and throw over to 3B and appeal, and an umpire rules that R3 did not properly tag up, then there's the third out... and that run is removed from the board. In OBR, an appeal must be a live-ball appeal. So if Time was called after the 2nd out, then in order to conduct an appeal, the ball has to be made Live again (and we have to go through the entire rigamarole of the pitcher engaging, then the Umpire calling "Play", then F1 stepping off to throw over to 3B, and making an appeal... this is why it behooves everyone to keep the ball Live as much as possible). However, in Fed (NFHS), an appeal can be a Verbal, Dead-Ball appeal, so if Time was called after the 2nd out, then all a member of the defense and/or the coach needs to do is verbally ask (appeal) if R3 left early (did not properly tag). An umpire will judge and rule accordingly. If R3 did not properly tag, then again, that's the third out, and the run is removed from the board. If the defense omits or declines to appeal, and conducts a pitch, then any appeal is waived and the run stands.

Were you perhaps thinking of a different situation? Like, say... R3, R1, and 1 out?

[Jimurray]

25 minutes ago, MadMax said:

Okay, so there's the first out. BR out on the caught fly ball. Everything from here on is a time play.

Okay, so there's the second out. This is a live, "natural" appeal, and one of the umpires observed that R1 didn't properly tag up, and is ruled out.

Now, likely by this point in time, R3 has crossed the plate and scored.

Are you asking if they did? If the defense ignores it, then the run scores. If they keep the ball live, and throw over to 3B and appeal, and an umpire rules that R3 did not properly tag up, then there's the third out... and that run is removed from the board. In OBR, an appeal must be a live-ball appeal. So if Time was called after the 2nd out, then in order to conduct an appeal, the ball has to be made Live again (and we have to go through the entire rigamarole of the pitcher engaging, then the Umpire calling "Play", then F1 stepping off to throw over to 3B, and making an appeal... this is why it behooves everyone to keep the ball Live as much as possible). However, in Fed (NFHS), an appeal can be a Verbal, Dead-Ball appeal, so if Time was called after the 2nd out, then all a member of the defense and/or the coach needs to do is verbally ask (appeal) if R3 left early (did not properly tag). An umpire will judge and rule accordingly. If R3 did not properly tag, then again, that's the third out, and the run is removed from the board. If the defense omits or declines to appeal, and conducts a pitch, then any appeal is waived and the run stands.

Were you perhaps thinking of a different situation? Like, say... R3, R1, and 1 out?

Bolded is a good idea but not required. But a really good idea.

[yawetag]

I should also add that runners can leave their bases once the ball is touched, not necessarily caught. For example, if the fielder were to deflect the ball back into the air, the runners would be allowed to leave their bases at that point, not at the point the ball was actually caught.

Hard to tell from your example if that was the case, but I sensed it based on your "thinking the ball wasn't caught take off" phrasing, though you could also mean they advanced between the bases while the ball was in the air, then continued advancing after they thought the ball was dropped.

[noumpere]

14 hours ago, Steven Tyler said:

 Is this considered an intervening play or time play and does the run score from 3rd?

An "intervening play" has to do with RLI and nothing to do with appeals.

It can't be a "time play" when all runners, including the BR are (eventually) out -- there's no one left to "score" before any recognized third or fourth out.

There was a guy with your user name on some of these boards who was nothing but a troll -- I hope you aren't that guy.

[beerguy55]

If everything happens as part of the same live ball play it doesn't matter - all the appeals are legal.

Even if this went to a dead ball before either appeal was made the pitcher could appeal to both bases in subsequent actions.  The appeal itself is not considered a play so the "before a play or pitch" rule doesn't apply.

[Jimurray]

17 minutes ago, beerguy55 said:

If everything happens as part of the same live ball play it doesn't matter - all the appeals are legal.

Even if this went to a dead ball before either appeal was made the pitcher could appeal to both bases in subsequent actions.  The appeal itself is not considered a play so the "before a play or pitch" rule doesn't apply.

Anything that happens during continuous action created by the batted ball does not preclude a formal appeal once the action ends.

[umpstu]

5 hours ago, noumpere said:

An "intervening play" has to do with RLI and nothing to do with appeals.

It can't be a "time play" when all runners, including the BR are (eventually) out -- there's no one left to "score" before any recognized third or fourth out.

There was a guy with your user name on some of these boards who was nothing but a troll -- I hope you aren't that guy.

I just think it's cool that the lead singer of Aerosmith would take the time to troll umpires.  I remember him from before as well.

[Guest Baconboy]

Does bob Evans serve breakfast for dinner? 

[Steven Tyler]

10 hours ago, noumpere said:

 

10 hours ago, noumpere said:

 

There was a guy with your user name on some of these boards who was nothing but a troll -- I hope you aren't that guy.

Yeah, you said that last time I posted.  See you haven't lost your holier than thou attitude.

Edited March 11, 2019 by Steven Tyler

[Steven Tyler]

5 hours ago, umpstu said:

I just think it's cool that the lead singer of Aerosmith would take the time to troll umpires.  I remember him from before as well.

If you want to know the real truth, I don't care what you think

[Steven Tyler]

On 3/10/2019 at 6:53 PM, MadMax said:

Okay, so there's the first out. BR out on the caught fly ball. Everything from here on is a time play.

Okay, so there's the second out. This is a live, "natural" appeal, and one of the umpires observed that R1 didn't properly tag up, and is ruled out.

Now, likely by this point in time, R3 has crossed the plate and scored.

Are you asking if they did? If the defense ignores it, then the run scores. If they keep the ball live, and throw over to 3B and appeal, and an umpire rules that R3 did not properly tag up, then there's the third out... and that run is removed from the board. In OBR, an appeal must be a live-ball appeal. So if Time was called after the 2nd out, then in order to conduct an appeal, the ball has to be made Live again (and we have to go through the entire rigamarole of the pitcher engaging, then the Umpire calling "Play", then F1 stepping off to throw over to 3B, and making an appeal... this is why it behooves everyone to keep the ball Live as much as possible). However, in Fed (NFHS), an appeal can be a Verbal, Dead-Ball appeal, so if Time was called after the 2nd out, then all a member of the defense and/or the coach needs to do is verbally ask (appeal) if R3 left early (did not properly tag). An umpire will judge and rule accordingly. If R3 did not properly tag, then again, that's the third out, and the run is removed from the board. If the defense omits or declines to appeal, and conducts a pitch, then any appeal is waived and the run stands.

Were you perhaps thinking of a different situation? Like, say... R3, R1, and 1 out?

 

[Steven Tyler]

Just now, Steven Tyler said:

 

Actually, I did remember that.  I was trying to read one of those slo-pitch association sites that appears their rules were written on the back of a napkin.  They even have a foul tip rule that the ball when caught after going less than a certain height the play is dead.  

The thread was coming somewhat "unraveled"  It did strike me strange that someone said an appeal was considered an intervening play.

Could someone please give me an example of an advantageous 4th out.  Been so long I can't think of one off the top of my head.

Again, thanks for the replies.  Wish I could still work out in the field, but my knee won't hold up to a DH.

[Tborze]

HEEE's BAACK!!!

[yawetag]

2 hours ago, Steven Tyler said:

Could someone please give me an example of an advantageous 4th out.  Been so long I can't think of one off the top of my head.

Sure. R2/R3, one out.

Fly ball to right field. Both runners think the ball will drop and begin to advance. F9 catches ball (out #2) as R2 touches 3B and R3 touches home. F9 throws to F6 at 2B, who appeals R2 not retouching. R2 is declared out (out #3). Because the third out was a time play (appeal), R3's run scores. F6 then throws to F5, who touches 3B for the no-retouch appeal. Umpire declares R3 out (out #4), and the run is nullified.

[Steven Tyler]

15 hours ago, yawetag said:

Sure. R2/R3, one out.

Fly ball to right field. Both runners think the ball will drop and begin to advance. F9 catches ball (out #2) as R2 touches 3B and R3 touches home. F9 throws to F6 at 2B, who appeals R2 not retouching. R2 is declared out (out #3). Because the third out was a time play (appeal), R3's run scores. F6 then throws to F5, who touches 3B for the no-retouch appeal. Umpire declares R3 out (out #4), and the run is nullified.

Thanks so much.  I think that is what I was trying to find the answer to in my original post.  Don't know why I used intervening plays.

Have a great season. 

[Vegas_Ump]

Steve, a general point that can be a good training tool.  There is a possible way that 10 appeals can be made at a single time?  Can you figure that out?

1.  An appeal on one runner at one base is NOT an intervening play.  (Hint:  Therefore other appeals can be attempted.)

2.  You cannot appeal the same runner at the same base more than once.

3.  You can appeal an advantageous 4th out:  for instance, BR misses 1B, and R3 scores, then R2 is thrown out at the plate for out #3.  An appeal on the BR (not achieving 1B legally) as a 4th out means that NO RUNS SCORE!

4.  It's important to know which rule set you are using, as in OBR the ball must be in play, but other books require only the appeal itself regardless of if the ball is in play or not.  (Check your local listings!)

5.  A lot of people THINK a failure to tag up after caught fly ball is a FORCE OUT!  No, it isn't!  It's an appeal play.

[Overheard in a game:  3b coach - "Hey Blue (PU), I appeal to you!" (on a banger at first.)  PU:  "No coach, you are ugly as sin!"  LOL!]

Mike

Las Vegas

 

[yawetag]

It's also possible to get an advantageous 5th out, too.

[maven]

48 minutes ago, yawetag said:

It's also possible to get an advantageous 5th out, too.

It is not. The "4th" out immediately supersedes the (original) 3rd out and becomes the third out.

If another appeal would negate a run, it's still an apparent "4th" out, superseding the (new) 3rd out.

Your point is well taken, though: appeals can generate additional outs beyond the original 3.

Bonus question: how many advantageous outs are possible in an inning?

[yawetag]

I can imagine 6 total outs in a half-inning (3 advantageous) - 12 (6 advantageous) in a full inning.

[Tborze]

Well?  You only get 6 outs an inning, so...

[Replacematt]

4 hours ago, maven said:

It is not. The "4th" out immediately supersedes the (original) 3rd out and becomes the third out.

If another appeal would negate a run, it's still an apparent "4th" out, superseding the (new) 3rd out.

Your point is well taken, though: appeals can generate additional outs beyond the original 3.

Bonus question: how many advantageous outs are possible in an inning?

But..do we allow appeals for which a fourth out would not be advantageous?

[Rich Ives]

2 hours ago, Matt said:

But..do we allow appeals for which a fourth out would not be advantageous?

What would be the point?

 

[Senor Azul]

2010 NFHS Baseball Rules Interpretations SITUATION 20: Two outs, R2 at second base. On a 1-2 pitch, R2 attempts to steal third base as the batter attempts to check his swing. R2 is thrown out at third base for the third out. The defense now wants to appeal the check-swing on B3 so that if he went around, he struck out and would not come back to bat in the next half-inning. U1 checks with the base umpire and U2 confirms that B3 did indeed swing at strike three. 

RULING: Since B3’s out is a “fourth” out, the defense may select the out which is most to its advantage. B3 is out for out No. 3 and the batter following him in the lineup will bat first in the next half-inning. (2-20-2, 9-1-1d)

[beerguy55]

17 hours ago, maven said:

It is not. The "4th" out immediately supersedes the (original) 3rd out and becomes the third out.

If another appeal would negate a run, it's still an apparent "4th" out, superseding the (new) 3rd out.

Your point is well taken, though: appeals can generate additional outs beyond the original 3.

Bonus question: how many advantageous outs are possible in an inning?

You could have three, though technically it's only one.   Each supersedes the other.  There are never more than three outs in an inning - the so called fourth out (and fifth and sixth) simply replace the previous "third" out to create a new third out - the scorebook is adjusted accordingly.

 

10 hours ago, Rich Ives said:

What would be the point?

 

Stats?

The one scenario I can think of is a check swing strike three where R1 is caught stealing for the third out.  If Batter is a really good hitter you might appeal to get the strikeout.   And this is indeed allowed.  If he's a really weak hitter you'll let it go and have him start the next inning.   It's not the '"according to hoyle" advantageous fourth out outlined in the rules, though.  But the same principle - replacing one third out with a different third out, but not to save a run.

 

As far as the "traditional" advantageous out involving missed bases or leaving early - outside of some kind of statistic reason (eg. get the third out on a runner going from first to third - then appeal to first that batter missed first base to turn his hit into an out) I can't think of why one would want to - but whether or not it's allowed would be an interesting discussion.

[Steven Tyler]

8 hours ago, maven said:

 

Bonus question: how many advantageous outs are possible in an inning?

Day game or night game?