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Ball thrown out of play


Guest Michael  Atkinson

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Guest Michael  Atkinson

Runner on first stealing second on pitch, ball hit is a pop up to second, after catching the ball in attempt to throw runner out at 1st throws the ball out of play. Is the runner awarded 2nd or 3rd? Assuming the runner had already reached first by time ball was out of play. 

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A throw  out of play is a two base award so 3B.  He must retouch 1B before advancing. If he doesn't he can be called out on appeal

Sorry, meant third. So when the coach comes out I respond that I didn't tell the runner to go anywhere, I made the base award according to rule, and it is still his responsibility to retouch first on

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2 hours ago, Guest Michael Atkinson said:

Runner on first stealing second on pitch, ball hit is a pop up to second, after catching the ball in attempt to throw runner out at 1st throws the ball out of play. Is the runner awarded 2nd or 3rd? Assuming the runner had already reached first by time ball was out of play. 

A throw  out of play is a two base award so 3B.  He must retouch 1B before advancing. If he doesn't he can be called out on appeal

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So as the umpire in B, how aggressively do you point to 3rd after the ball goes out of play? I would think that by doing to too aggressively you are "instructing" the runner to go there, and not going back to 1B to re-touch? Then if called out on appeal, they can say that you told him to go there, not back to 1ST base first.

But, if you tell him to go to 3RD after re-touching 1ST base, then you are helping the offense and sort of coaching the runner.

 

Just curious how guys handle the mechanics here. Thanks

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Depends on where the runner was at time of throw (not when it goes OOP). My mechanics don't change. When the ball goes OOP, I signal and say "Time!" Then I point to the runner and say "You," then point to his awarded base and say "third base" or "home".

If he's standing on or beyond 2B at time of throw, I'll award him home. If he returns and touches 1B, I'll point at him again and award him third base.

If he's standing on 1B or between 1B and 2B at time of throw (no matter where he's standing when the ball goes OOP), I'm awarding him 3B. If he returns and touches 1B, I won't do anything mechanically.

Edited by yawetag
wrote TOP instead of TOT - changed to time of throw
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37 minutes ago, yawetag said:

Depends on where the runner was at time of throw (not when it goes OOP). My mechanics don't change. When the ball goes OOP, I signal and say "Time!" Then I point to the runner and say "You," then point to his awarded base and say "third base" or "home".

If he's standing on or beyond 2B at time of throw, I'll award him home. If he returns and touches 1B, I'll point at him again and award him third base.

If he's standing on 1B or between 1B and 2B at time of throw (no matter where he's standing when the ball goes OOP), I'm awarding him 3B. If he returns and touches 1B, I won't do anything mechanically.

Why TOT if he is on 1B or between 1B and 2B? Seems to be first play by an infielder. Two bases TOP.

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1 hour ago, Jimurray said:

Why TOT if he is on 1B or between 1B and 2B? Seems to be first play by an infielder. Two bases TOP.

Because my mind had the ball caught by an outfielder, not F4. My fault.

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4 hours ago, MDFinny said:

So as the umpire in B, how aggressively do you point to 3rd after the ball goes out of play?

In Little league (I like doing lower level ball to help not only teaching the players, but the coaches so it's easier on all of us when moving up), I take it a step further.  In playing the "assumption" card that the big kids know better, the little ones know NO better.  So to prevent lil' Johnny from doing something illegal<1>, I break it down<2>.

1-You <point>- 3rd base!   and lil' Johnny cuts across the diamond from 1st to 3rd when awarded 3rd base........not touching 2nd.

2- You<point>, to 2nd base, and then to 3rd base.

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I'd like to hear more about the mechanic on this. I think in most cases the runner will probably make it back to touch first by the time the ball goes out, but let's say he doesn't. Maybe he was stealing on the pitch and it was a line drive. If the infielder sails it and it goes out before R1 gets back and I yell time and point to second, aren't I inviting a HC ejection when he comes out and says his runner did exactly what I told him to do? I have not thought about this before, but several of the high schools in our area don't have a fence down the line, but a chalk line, and the ball goes out all the time. Sort of surprised I haven't run into this yet. 

I get I'm not there to coach the runner, but it seems weird for him to do what I tell him to when I tell him to then call him out on appeal. Are there better ways to handle this?

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3 minutes ago, mwest5575 said:

I get I'm not there to coach the runner, but it seems weird for him to do what I tell him to when I tell him to then call him out on appeal.

exactly why I call it the way I do.  Again, this is younger kids 8-10 years old.  It may be their first year not playing soccer, so I don't want to scare them away "by calling them out on appeal after Itell them to do something".

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5 minutes ago, mwest5575 said:

I'd like to hear more about the mechanic on this. I think in most cases the runner will probably make it back to touch first by the time the ball goes out, but let's say he doesn't. Maybe he was stealing on the pitch and it was a line drive. If the infielder sails it and it goes out before R1 gets back and I yell time and point to second, aren't I inviting a HC ejection when he comes out and says his runner did exactly what I told him to do? I have not thought about this before, but several of the high schools in our area don't have a fence down the line, but a chalk line, and the ball goes out all the time. Sort of surprised I haven't run into this yet. 

I get I'm not there to coach the runner, but it seems weird for him to do what I tell him to when I tell him to then call him out on appeal. Are there better ways to handle this?

A. The award in the OP is not second base.

B. You aren't telling the runner what to do, but what he is awarded. If he goes immediately to that base and doesn't correct his error (in OBR,) that's his fault for not knowing the rules. If HC comes out, he doesn't have a leg to stand on and that's his problem. If he doesn't like it, deal with him and move on. 

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6 minutes ago, Matt said:

A. The award in the OP is not second base.

B. You aren't telling the runner what to do, but what he is awarded. If he goes immediately to that base and doesn't correct his error (in OBR,) that's his fault for not knowing the rules. If HC comes out, he doesn't have a leg to stand on and that's his problem. If he doesn't like it, deal with him and move on. 

Sorry, meant third. So when the coach comes out I respond that I didn't tell the runner to go anywhere, I made the base award according to rule, and it is still his responsibility to retouch first on the caught ball. Got it. Thanks.

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2 hours ago, mwest5575 said:

Follow up question. Just trying to think of different possibilities of this happening. What if I call time, and make the award, and the coach or player asks me if the runner needs to retouch first. Do I answer? Yes!  How do I answer? By not answering:shrug:

 

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3 hours ago, mwest5575 said:

Sorry, meant third. So when the coach comes out I respond that I didn't tell the runner to go anywhere, I made the base award according to rule, and it is still his responsibility to retouch first on the caught ball. Got it. Thanks.

Exactly.

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