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A head scratcher......

While inspecting the field prior to the game, the umpires notice that the screen attached to the left field foul pole has rotated to a position within the fence line. The Home Coach tells the umpires that they have tried to return the screen to its original position, but it won't budge. In the third inning, B1 hits a fly ball that strikes the screen on the foul pole within the field of play. It ricochets off the screen and over the fence in fair territory. The umpires should:

A. Rule it a Home Run.
B. Rule it a ground rule double as it struck an obstruction within the field of play.

I have been advised the correct answer for this test question is B. (On the field might be otherwise) I have tried to find a rules reference and the closest I find is :

 

Rule 8. 3.3 . . . Each runner is awarded:

c. two bases if a fair batted or thrown ball becomes dead because of bouncing over or passing through a fence, or lodges in a defensive player's or umpire's equipment or uniform; or if a live thrown ball:

Does hitting the screen and ricocheting satisfy the "bouncing over" reference above?

 

I am conflicted because of Rule 8.3.3 ... Each runner is awarded

a. four bases (home) if a fair ball goes over a fence in flight or hits a foul pole above the fence, or is prevented from going over by being touched by a spectator, or is touched by an illegal glove/mitt or detached player equipment which is thrown, tossed, kicked or held by a fielder;

 What say you?

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I agree that rule 8-3-3 is relevant to the question but it is not the only rule to be considered. FED rule 4-1-2 also is applicable--

2018 NFHS rule 4-1 ART. 2 . . . If there are unusual conditions, such as spectators or obstacles too near the playing field, the home coach shall propose special ground rules. If sanctioned by the visiting team, these shall be in force. If the teams cannot agree, the umpires shall formulate ground rules. Ground rules do not supersede a rules book rule. All special rules shall be announced.

c. Wild pitches, overthrows and batted balls that go over, through or wedges in a fence are governed by Rule 8-3-3. If the field has unusual obstructions, ground rules should, as nearly as possible, be similar to this rule.

d. For a special field condition, such as a drain pipe that makes a spot where it is impossible or very difficult for a fielder to retrieve the ball, the ball should become dead if it goes to that spot and each runner’s advance should be limited to two bases.

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15 hours ago, Senor Azul said:

I agree that rule 8-3-3 is relevant to the question but it is not the only rule to be considered. FED rule 4-1-2 also is applicable--

2018 NFHS rule 4-1 ART. 2 . . . If there are unusual conditions, such as spectators or obstacles too near the playing field, the home coach shall propose special ground rules. If sanctioned by the visiting team, these shall be in force. If the teams cannot agree, the umpires shall formulate ground rules. Ground rules do not supersede a rules book rule. All special rules shall be announced.

c. Wild pitches, overthrows and batted balls that go over, through or wedges in a fence are governed by Rule 8-3-3. If the field has unusual obstructions, ground rules should, as nearly as possible, be similar to this rule.

d. For a special field condition, such as a drain pipe that makes a spot where it is impossible or very difficult for a fielder to retrieve the ball, the ball should become dead if it goes to that spot and each runner’s advance should be limited to two bases.

Without actually remembering this rule, my first thought when I read this question was

”If the umpires and the coach both knew about this and actually talked about it, how come they didn’t come up with a ground rule to cover it?”

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14 hours ago, Richvee said:

Without actually remembering this rule, my first thought when I read this question was

”If the umpires and the coach both knew about this and actually talked about it, how come they didn’t come up with a ground rule to cover it?”

According to my chapter interpreter, ground rules cannot supersede rule book rules.

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35 minutes ago, Kevin_K said:

According to my chapter interpreter, ground rules cannot supersede rule book rules.

According to FED rules, ground rules cannot supercede rule book rules:

4-1-2: Ground rules do not supersede a rules book rule.

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1 hour ago, Richvee said:

Well that’s all well and good. . What’s the rule book rule we’re superseding? 

That would be a question for the rules interpreter. So far, he has not answered the question.

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12 hours ago, Richvee said:

Well that’s all well and good. . What’s the rule book rule we’re superseding? 

The rule that a batted ball hitting the fair/foul pole  in flight is a fair ball and a home run. This includes the screen or net attached to the fair/foul pole. 

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16 minutes ago, ilyazhito said:

The rule that a batted ball hitting the fair/foul pole  in flight is a fair ball and a home run. This includes the screen or net attached to the fair/foul pole. 

Kokernot Field, Alpine, Texas has foul poles a foot or two inside. They are marked at the height of the outfield wall. Probably a minor geometric inequity but HR if ball ever hit above that mark.

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And that

On 2/25/2019 at 12:37 AM, ilyazhito said:

I would say A, because the net or screen attached to the fair pole is part of the fair pole. If a ball in flight hits the fair pole (even if the screen is attached incorrectly), the result of the play is a home run. 

I disagree. If the poles were installed incorrectly and the screen was installed on the foul side of the line, that is in foul territory. The pole is simply a guide in deciding fair/foul. Because they're installed on the line, that's what makes the pole itself in fair territory. Any attachment to the pole will be judged by the location of that attachment in relation to the foul line.

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5 hours ago, ilyazhito said:

This includes the screen or net attached to the fair/foul pole. 

Do you have a citation for this? I would love to be able to shove it up their ask about the inconsistency.

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The portion of a foul pole above the top of the fence line is over fair and dead ball territory, so a batted ball that strikes it is both fair and dead.

2018 NFHS Rule 2

SECTION 42 PLAYING FIELD

The playing field includes both fair and foul territory. Any other areas beyond the playing field are defined as being outside the playing field (dead ball area). Any wall, fence, barricade, rope, wire, marked or imaginary line is considered a part of the playing field. Any areas beyond those boundaries are outside the playing field.

2018 NFHS Rule 8-3 ART. 3 . . . Each runner is awarded:

a.    four bases (home) if a fair ball goes over a fence in flight or hits a foul pole above the fence...

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@Senor Azul, I don't know that anyone has disputed the pole itself. The comment is on an attachment to the pole, a screen if you will, that typically is on the fair side of the pole, to help an umpire judge those balls that are within a couple feet of the foul pole.

If you can provide a Fed rule or case play that actually answers the OP question, please copy/paste it, too.

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48 minutes ago, yawetag said:

@Senor Azul, I don't know that anyone has disputed the pole itself. The comment is on an attachment to the pole, a screen if you will, that typically is on the fair side of the pole, to help an umpire judge those balls that are within a couple feet of the foul pole.

If you can provide a Fed rule or case play that actually answers the OP question, please copy/paste it, too.

 

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I would even go as far as asking for a case play where a ball hits a scoreboard or any other object that may be above the height of the outfield fence but over live ball territory.

Are there any ball parks that might fit this bill? Perhaps a college field shoehorned into a section of the campus where another building may extend into the field of play?

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34 minutes ago, Kevin_K said:

I would even go as far as asking for a case play where a ball hits a scoreboard or any other object that may be above the height of the outfield fence but over live ball territory.

Are there any ball parks that might fit this bill? Perhaps a college field shoehorned into a section of the campus where another building may extend into the field of play?

Kokernot Field fit that bill also. They had a scoreboard in CF that had a catwalk extended a few feet over CF for the person that used to do the manual scoreboard. They ran the yellow line around the front of the catwalk. They got a new scoreboard in LF but I don't know if they took the catwalk down. I was convinced that I was wrong in applying the book rule for a HR at that field in a previous thread I started about the field. If they can do it at Wrigley the can do it at Kokernot or wherever.

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13 hours ago, Kevin_K said:

I would even go as far as asking for a case play where a ball hits a scoreboard or any other object that may be above the height of the outfield fence but over live ball territory.

Are there any ball parks that might fit this bill? Perhaps a college field shoehorned into a section of the campus where another building may extend into the field of play?

Like this one:?

SITUATION 6: At the pre-game conference, the home team coach is covering ground rules. He points out that in right field the light pole is a few feet in front of the fence. He mentions that a black tape is around the light pole, about 12 feet above the ground. He states that it is a home run if a fly ball hits the light pole above the tape since the ball would have easily cleared the fence if the light pole were not there. RULING: A ground rule cannot supersede the rules book. A fly ball hitting the light pole above the tape will remain in play and will not be ruled a home run. The batted fair ball must go over a fence in flight before a home run can be awarded. (4-1-2, 8-3-3a)

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There were two interpretations issued in 2002 about ground rules--Mr. noumpere already posted one of them and here’s the other--

2002 NFHS Baseball Rule Interpretations SITUATION 7: The scoreboard is flush with the fence and extends more than 60 feet above the ground in left center field. About two-thirds the way up the scoreboard, a horizontal line has been drawn the length of the scoreboard. The home team coach states that it is their ground rule that any fair batted ball that hits the scoreboard above the line is a home run. RULING: A ground rule cannot supersede the rules book. A fly ball hitting the scoreboard above the tape will remain in play and will not be ruled a home run. The batted fair ball must go over a fence in flight before a home run can be awarded. (4-1-2, 8-3-3a)

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20 hours ago, Kevin_K said:

I would even go as far as asking for a case play where a ball hits a scoreboard or any other object that may be above the height of the outfield fence but over live ball territory.

Are there any ball parks that might fit this bill? Perhaps a college field shoehorned into a section of the campus where another building may extend into the field of play?

Winona State University has this type of ground rule.   The football stadium wall IS the right field wall.  The black portion above the green hangs over the wall itself and is out of play and a HR if struck in the air.  Very tricky to call, especially in 2-man.  

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