How many runs count, AFTER battered declared out?

[Howard]

Runners on 1st and 2nd.  2 outs.  Batter hits a home run.  The batter, on appeal, is declared out for missing first base.  How many runs count?

[noumpere]

None.

 

No runs can score when the batter makes the third out before legally reaching first.

 

Here's an AR, right from the OBR rules book:

APPROVED RULING: Two out, bases full, batter hits
home run over fence. Batter, on appeal, is declared out
for missing first base. Three outs. No run counts.

[stkjock]

0

[beerguy55]

Zilcho - to expand - typically an appeal is a time play, but if the appeal involves a force, or the batter going to first, that takes effect.   Also, a preceding runner out on appeal prevents following runners from scoring (if two out).

If B/R missed any other base it would be two runs.

R2 misses third or home - 0

R1 misses second - 0

R1 misses third or home - 1

[Guest Mark g]

Runners first and third. One out  batter hits grounder  infield starts to turn double play. Runner from third crosses home before third out recorded at first. Does the run count

[stkjock]

3 minutes ago, Guest Mark g said:

Runners first and third. One out  batter hits grounder  infield starts to turn double play. Runner from third crosses home before third out recorded at first. Does the run count

nope

 

no run can score if the batter fails to reach first safely 

[Guest Mark g]

Runners first and third. One out  batter hits grounder  infield starts to turn double play. Runner from third crosses home before third out recorded at first. Does the run count

[beerguy55]

46 minutes ago, stkjock said:

nope

 

no run can score if the batter fails to reach first safely 

For the third out - (ie. if for reasons unknown they went 4-3-6 for the DP the run would count)

I know that you know that, but those asking the question may not.

[stkjock]

49 minutes ago, beerguy55 said:

For the third out - (ie. if for reasons unknown they went 4-3-6 for the DP the run would count)

I know that you know that, but those asking the question may not.

fair enough, however, I was responding to the specifics of the scenario in the question as posed.

[FleasOf1000Camels]

I had a fun one about 10 years ago. 

1 out, runners on 1st and 3rd.

Batter hits line drive right at feet of F5 who picks it on the short hop. 

R1 (who was running on the pitch) thinks F5 caught it in the air...he's nearly to 2nd, and makes no effort to return.

F5 never took a look at R3, so as soon as F5 steps to throws to F3, R3 breaks for home.

R1, who believes he is out, is walking toward 3rd base dugout.

F3, after tagging bag for out #2, runs after R1 and tags him near the pitcher's mound.

No question R3 crossed plate before R1 was tagged for out #3.

We ruled the run good.

Violent objections from defensive team's manager and bench coach led to both being ejected.

Protest filed and denied by tournament director.

My partner and I had a nice dinner on the $100 protest deposit 

 

 

 

[Rich Ives]

28 minutes ago, FleasOf1000Camels said:

I had a fun one about 10 years ago. 

1 out, runners on 1st and 3rd.

Batter hits line drive right at feet of F5 who picks it on the short hop. 

R1 (who was running on the pitch) thinks F5 caught it in the air...he's nearly to 2nd, and makes no effort to return.

F5 never took a look at R3, so as soon as F5 steps to throws to F3, R3 breaks for home.

R1, who believes he is out, is walking toward 3rd base dugout.

F3, after tagging bag for out #2, runs after R1 and tags him near the pitcher's mound.

No question R3 crossed plate before R1 was tagged for out #3.

We ruled the run good.

Violent objections from defensive team's manager and bench coach led to both being ejected.

Protest filed and denied by tournament director.

My partner and I had a nice dinner on the $100 protest deposit 

 

 

 

Protest fees are bullcrap.  They're a right that is in the rules.  Why not charge them $5 for a check swing appeal too? 

[BT_Blue]

3 hours ago, Rich Ives said:

Protest fees are bullcrap.  They're a right that is in the rules.  Why not charge them $5 for a check swing appeal too? 

I'm for this! I can always use the extra coffee money.

[beerguy55]

11 hours ago, Rich Ives said:

Protest fees are bullcrap.  They're a right that is in the rules.  Why not charge them $5 for a check swing appeal too? 

I would qualify that to say they're bull crap in tournaments - delay the game for a few minutes, call over the TD/UIC, make a ruling.  They are both present for the entirety of the tournament specifically for situations like this.  I personally have never coached a tournament that had a protest fee, so I was surprised to hear of it when I started using this message board.

Protest fees are necessary in league settings where committees typically need to be called to meet in the days after the game, outside people's schedules, sometimes requiring an umpire to be present, who then can't be assigned to a game...you want to make sure the coach is committed to it and it's worthwhile.

[FleasOf1000Camels]

All I could do was follow the tournament rules.  When their ONE remaining coach informed me of their intent to protest, I said "tournament rules give you that right, but require a $100 cash deposit.  Then we stop the game as long as necessary to get ruling from UIC (who was NOT on site...multiple locations).  If protest is upheld, you get the call and the deposit back.  If denied, no refund."  I specifically told him "Please don't waste your money or time on this;  we're both 100% certain the ruling is correct"  He did it anyway.  Held up the game for nearly half an hour while we tracked down UIC.  Quite honestly, I was shocked when TD told us to keep the $100, I'd have expected him to pocket it for himself.

[noumpere]

14 hours ago, Rich Ives said:

Protest fees are bullcrap.  They're a right that is in the rules.  Why not charge them $5 for a check swing appeal too? 

If you don’t have them, though, you get a lot of frivolous protests. There needs to be a balance. 

[Aging_Arbiter]

$13 dollar pitching visit....................$27 substitution..................$250 for any discussion with the umpire when traveling from the coaches box, across the field to his dugout.

[Rich Ives]

7 hours ago, beerguy55 said:

 

Protest fees are necessary in league settings where committees typically need to be called to meet in the days after the game, outside people's schedules, sometimes requiring an umpire to be present, who then can't be assigned to a game...you want to make sure the coach is committed to it and it's worthwhile.

LL forbids them.

[Senor Azul]

From the 2018 Little League Rules Instruction Manual (rule 4.19e):

There can be NO FEE attached to the submission of protest. Leagues, at times, try to put a fee into place in an effort to discourage protests. THIS CANNOT BE DONE.

[Lou B]

You run a Tournament, you have a Tournament Director at the Park to rule on Protests.  If you use multiple parks you have a TD at each one. How hard can that be?

If the TD has to call someone what's the big deal, doesn't everyone have a cell phone?

Protest Fees are a ripoff (IMO).

[jjb]

3 hours ago, Lou B said:

You run a Tournament, you have a Tournament Director at the Park to rule on Protests.  If you use multiple parks you have a TD at each one. How hard can that be?

If the TD has to call someone what's the big deal, doesn't everyone have a cell phone?

Protest Fees are a ripoff (IMO).

No, not really. I UIC'd a UTrip WS. We'd been to a couple before, and saw them deal with "My runner was safe and the Umpire called him out, we protest." Didn't matter that the Umpire explained that they couldn't, they just wanted to hold up the game and b^#ch. So, when we ran our own, we imposed a 100$ protest fee. Out of about 48 games, we had three protests: one upheld, two denied. Quiet tournament. Spent the money on fruit, water and Gatorade for the Umpires. 

[beerguy55]

On 10/26/2018 at 10:02 AM, noumpere said:

If you don’t have them, though, you get a lot of frivolous protests. There needs to be a balance. 

Not in my experience.  I know that's the fear (and, frankly, I had at one time assumed it would be the case), but, my anecdotal input is the fears are unfounded.   I've coached in tournaments in five states and five provinces, hundreds of games as a coach, and a couple hundred more as a TD or scorekeeper...I can probably count the protests I've seen on one hand...certainly on both.   And not a single one of those tournaments had a protest fee.   Frankly, the biggest problem I've had with tournaments is the inconsistent or incorrect application of tie breaker rules (or badly written rules) for the round robin, and that has nothing to do with the umpires.

In one scenario in a league with a $50 protest fee I opted not to protest, not because of the fee or fear of losing (I would definitely have won the protest)...it just wasn't worth my time or effort...not only to do the protest meeting some other night that week (or next), but then to replay/continue the game.

On 10/26/2018 at 10:39 PM, jjb said:

No, not really. I UIC'd a UTrip WS. We'd been to a couple before, and saw them deal with "My runner was safe and the Umpire called him out, we protest." Didn't matter that the Umpire explained that they couldn't, they just wanted to hold up the game and b^#ch.

That's an easy problem to solve.  "We're done here coach - one more word and the next move is I eject you, and then you can go find the TD while we finish the game"...or, grant the 'protest' and then let the TD/UIC deal with it -  "OK, coach, this is your freebie...if you protest a judgment call again you forfeit"...put it into the tournament by-laws if you have to.

You saw 3 protests in a 48 game tournament...wow...I once went three years without seeing one.

 

 

[jjb]

22 hours ago, beerguy55 said:

Not in my experience.  I know that's the fear (and, frankly, I had at one time assumed it would be the case), but, my anecdotal input is the fears are unfounded.   I've coached in tournaments in five states and five provinces, hundreds of games as a coach, and a couple hundred more as a TD or scorekeeper...I can probably count the protests I've seen on one hand...certainly on both.   And not a single one of those tournaments had a protest fee.   Frankly, the biggest problem I've had with tournaments is the inconsistent or incorrect application of tie breaker rules (or badly written rules) for the round robin, and that has nothing to do with the umpires.

In one scenario in a league with a $50 protest fee I opted not to protest, not because of the fee or fear of losing (I would definitely have won the protest)...it just wasn't worth my time or effort...not only to do the protest meeting some other night that week (or next), but then to replay/continue the game.

That's an easy problem to solve.  "We're done here coach - one more word and the next move is I eject you, and then you can go find the TD while we finish the game"...or, grant the 'protest' and then let the TD/UIC deal with it -  "OK, coach, this is your freebie...if you protest a judgment call again you forfeit"...put it into the tournament by-laws if you have to.

You saw 3 protests in a 48 game tournament...wow...I once went three years without seeing one.

 

 

Multi-State Tournament. High Intensity. As Staff, it was an exercise in diplomacy to keep teams happy and keep the tourney moving. No one complained about the fee, as we made it abundantly clear beforehand. Couple times I had to tell teams, "you may want to re-consider before protesting". Worked more than once.  Two out of three protests were on pitching rules, one was a ball in play/out of play issue. It was an experience, I gotta tell you.