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Jono

What's the award?

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No runners on. OBR.  The batter hits a fair ground ball down the left field line.  F7 attempts to field the ball and, after the batter has reached first base, unintentionally deflects the ball out of play. Does the batter/runner get 3rd?? 

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1 hour ago, Jono said:

No runners on. OBR.  The batter hits a fair ground ball down the left field line.  F7 attempts to field the ball and, after the batter has reached first base, unintentionally deflects the ball out of play. Does the batter/runner get 3rd?? 

No.

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58 minutes ago, Rich Ives said:

No.

Ok. Thank you for the the reply but could you maybe shed any more light on that, like what would the award of bases be (if any) or refer me to the applicable ruling please.

Thanks in advance.

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7 minutes ago, Jono said:

Ok. Thank you for the the reply but could you maybe shed any more light on that, like what would the award of bases be (if any) or refer me to the applicable ruling please.

Thanks in advance.

A fair batted ball that deflects off a fielder, and out of play in foul territory is a 2 base award from the time of the pitch (TOP). Much the same as a ball that lands fair in the outfield and bounces outof play would be a "ground rule double".Everyone advances 2 bases from the position TOP.

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Just to add...you did say "deflected" off the fielder, so I'm assuming the ball was still moving when it deflected off the fielder. 

If the batted ball stops, and the fielder adds the impedes to the ball that causes it to go out of play, now we'd have 2 bases from where the runner(s) were at the time of the kick" 

IOW, if the fielder merely changes the direction of the batted ball and goes out of play in foul territory, it's  2 bases TOP. If the ball stops, and then the fielder kicks/throws/bobles it and it goes out of play, 2 bases time of kick/throw/bobble.

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The following text can be found in the PBUC manual, the MLBUM, and the MiBUM--

If a fair ball not in flight is deflected by a fielder and then goes out of play, the award is two bases from the time of the pitch.

If a fielder has complete possession of a batted or thrown ball and subsequently deflects or kicks the ball out of play, the award is two bases from the position of the runners at the time the ball was kicked or deflected.

If a fielder has complete possession of a batted or thrown ball and drops the ball and it then goes out of play, the award is two bases from the position of the runners at the time the ball was dropped.

If, in the judgment of the umpires, a fielder intentionally kicks or deflects a batted or thrown ball out of play, the award is two bases from the time the ball was kicked or deflected.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Jono said:

Ok. Thank you for the the reply but could you maybe shed any more light on that, like what would the award of bases be (if any) or refer me to the applicable ruling please.

Thanks in advance.

5.05(a )(8)

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9 hours ago, Richvee said:

Just to add...you did say "deflected" off the fielder, so I'm assuming the ball was still moving when it deflected off the fielder. 

If the batted ball stops, and the fielder adds the impedes to the ball that causes it to go out of play, now we'd have 2 bases from where the runner(s) were at the time of the kick" 

IOW, if the fielder merely changes the direction of the batted ball and goes out of play in foul territory, it's  2 bases TOP. If the ball stops, and then the fielder kicks/throws/bobles it and it goes out of play, 2 bases time of kick/throw/bobble.

Though what you say is, IMO, common sense, I have yet to see any quote from a rule book or an umpire's manual or a case play book that makes this statement (very possible I've just missed it in all these discussions).  I've seen the language that @Senor Azul posted above, which either requires possession, or intent...and similar language in an article @Gil had a couple of weeks ago with a play in a MLB game that had two deflections (on a throw in that case)...but nothing "official" to support the position that an unintentional deflection of a stopped, or almost stopped ball, where it is the fielder (without ever possessing it), and not the bat or throw, that is creating the impetus, is two bases from TOD/TOE (error?) instead of TOP/TOT.   Do you have that?

I agree that at some point you "should" determine that the hit is "over", that it's no longer a "batted ball", and then anything that happens after that is the result of a new action (even without possession), and should be awarded as such - I just haven't seen the language to support it.   It would be an 8.01c thingy, would it not?

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20 minutes ago, beerguy55 said:

I agree that at some point you "should" determine that the hit is "over", that it's no longer a "batted ball"

That's my take on it. 

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20 minutes ago, Richvee said:

That's my take on it. 

So are you invoking 8.01(c) to make the ruling?  Under the "Jesus Christ, this is just common sense" approach.   

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Related, the following play covers this precise scenario of a batted ball deflected out of play after the batter-runner has already touched first base, and possibly second base, as well : https://www.closecallsports.com/2017/09/case-play-2017-9-deflected-error-triple.html

And the two bases from TOE play: https://www.closecallsports.com/2018/07/uefl-case-play-2018-6-kicked-out-of-play.html

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3 hours ago, Richvee said:

That's my take on it. 

It can only be  (direct or deflected) a batted ball, a throw, or a pitch.  How would you re-classify it?

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3 minutes ago, Rich Ives said:

It can only be  (direct or deflected) a batted ball, a throw, or a pitch.  How would you re-classify it?

I refer you to Gil's take on this. I'm in agreement here. 

And the two bases from TOE play: https://www.closecallsports.com/2018/07/uefl-case-play-2018-6-kicked-out-of-play.html

 

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36 minutes ago, Rich Ives said:

It can only be  (direct or deflected) a batted ball, a throw, or a pitch.  How would you re-classify it?

Common sense.

At some point a batted or thrown ball stops.   You can decide that it stays a batted ball until it is picked up and thrown. Or you can decide that at some point it becomes something else - no longer "batted" but not yet "thrown".

MLB addresses part of this with the language in the MLBUM of what happens after a ball has become possessed.  If you were to pick up a batted ball with your glove, and then start running towards the infield...then trip and fall and the ball comes out of your glove and rolls out of play...that is not a "thrown" ball, and it's no longer a batted ball.  The runners are awarded two bases "time of error" (or drop, or kick, or deflection).

Use 8.01(c) because the situation is not specifically addressed in the rules or the manuals, and then apply common sense.   A batted ball that comes to rest and then is unintentionally knocked out of play is not a "batted ball" deflected out of play, and it's not a "thrown ball" deflected out of play...it's a "something else" deflected out of play.

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42 minutes ago, beerguy55 said:

C the ball comes out of your glove and rolls out of play...that is not a "thrown" ball,

Of course it is. From whence cameth the impetus?

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13 minutes ago, Rich Ives said:

A kick is considered to be a throw.

cite? 

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45 minutes ago, Rich Ives said:

Of course it is. From whence cameth the impetus?

 

44 minutes ago, Rich Ives said:

A kick is considered to be a throw.

It may in many ways be treated like a throw, but it is not a throw.   Even the language in the MLBUM does not cite time of "throw" for the base award - it cites time of "drop" or time of "deflection"...and in practice, time of "error".    It certainly does separate itself from time of pitch awards, and has the same award as most errant throws, but it's not a throw (keeping in mind that some throws have a time of pitch award)

A deflection or a drop or an unintentional kick is not a "throw", even if it might be treated like one.   If it makes it easier to consider it a throw, so be it.

A THROW is the act of propelling the ball with the hand and arm to a given objective and is to be distinguished, always, from the pitch

 

So I go back to the original point.  A batted ball that comes to rest, that is then deflected out of play, requires you to decide one of two things:

1. Take literally that a batted ball remains a batted ball, forever, or until it is possessed by a fielder - and grant two bases time of pitch

2. If the impetus comes from the fielder and not the bat, in your words,  consider it "a throw" - and grant two bases time of throw/kick/deflection/error

And then you can apply the same exercise to batted balls that are almost at rest.

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I posted the following text just 4 days ago. So, at least in FED, the terms seem to be used interchangeably.

2018 FED Case Book Play 8.3.3 Situation J:  B1 singles to right field, (a) the ball rolls to a stop and F9, attempting to pick it up, kicks the ball into dead-ball territory or (b) the bouncing ball strikes F9 on the leg and deflects into dead-ball territory. RULING:  In (a), F9 applied the impetus that caused the ball to go into dead-ball territory, which is the same as if he had thrown it there. The award to any runner is two bases from the base occupied at the time of the kick (throw). In (b), the force on the batted ball caused the ball to go into dead-ball territory, so the award to any runner is two bases from the base occupied at the time of the pitch.

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1 hour ago, Senor Azul said:

I posted the following text just 4 days ago. So, at least in FED, the terms seem to be used interchangeably.

2018 FED Case Book Play 8.3.3 Situation J:  B1 singles to right field, (a) the ball rolls to a stop and F9, attempting to pick it up, kicks the ball into dead-ball territory or (b) the bouncing ball strikes F9 on the leg and deflects into dead-ball territory. RULING:  In (a), F9 applied the impetus that caused the ball to go into dead-ball territory, which is the same as if he had thrown it there. The award to any runner is two bases from the base occupied at the time of the kick (throw). In (b), the force on the batted ball caused the ball to go into dead-ball territory, so the award to any runner is two bases from the base occupied at the time of the pitch.

Wonder if FED  extends this interp to include thrown balls that are subsequently "kicked" unintentionally into DBT .

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