Foul Tip vs. Foul "Trap"

[MadMax]

Russell Martin's nifty foul tip catch yesterday (06/26/2018) was a textbook example of a caught foul tip.

Notice the key elements: 1) Sharp and direct to the mitt (or it could have been his throwing hand) first, 2) didn't touch the umpire, batter, or ground, 3) re-caught and secured.

Since this is a foul tip, the ball would remain Live. This being strike three, the batter would be (and was) Out.

Here's an extreme other example to compare and contrast against, again involving Russell Martin –

Notice that the ball goes directly to the mask first. It is inconsequential that the ball was stuck in the eye port (just to defeat the idea that it is "detached equipment" or a "lodged ball") because as soon as it touches the mask, it is Foul (or, thus, Dead). It is also irrelevant had Martin been able to keep the mask from hitting the ground, as again, once the batted ball hits the mask (or his shinguard, or his CP, etc.) it is Foul... unless it hits the mitt or his throwing hand first. 

So any batted ball that hits the catcher other than his mitt or hand first is Foul immediately... regardless if it subsequently trapped or caught.

However, for the sake of discussion, and because I'm curious... had the ball hit Martin's mitt first and then lodged in Martin's mask... what then?

[Stk004]

9 hours ago, MadMax said:

However, for the sake of discussion, and because I'm curious... had the ball hit Martin's mitt first and then lodged in Martin's mask... what then?

Foul ball. A CATCH is the act of a fielder in getting secure possession in his hand or glove of a ball in flight and firmly holding it; providing he does not use his cap, protector, pocket or any other part of his uniform in getting possession.

[BretMan]

On ‎6‎/‎27‎/‎2018 at 2:12 PM, MadMax said:

So any batted ball that hits the catcher other than his mitt or hand first is Foul immediately... regardless if it subsequently trapped or caught.

I'm sure that you mean "any batted ball that's hit sharp and direct"...because otherwise, that phrase is totally false.

[BT_Blue]

Wait... I thought that a foul too was what happens when we get hit and the bat only nips the ball as it goes by? 

[alex7]

So this year, NCAA if it hits the catcher ANYWHERE and he catches it, we have a caught foul tip and the ball stays fair.

NFHS it's still directly to glove or hand?

OBR still directly to glove or hand?

Just checking if NCAA is the only we know that's changed it.

[Stk004]

4 minutes ago, alex7 said:

So this year, NCAA if it hits the catcher ANYWHERE and he catches it, we have a caught foul tip and the ball stays fair.

NFHS it's still directly to glove or hand?

OBR still directly to glove or hand?

Just checking if NCAA is the only we know that's changed it.

I know OBR is now anywhere on the catcher just like NCAA. Not sure about NFHS

[SJA]

Don't think OBR changed. ?

[Replacematt]

31 minutes ago, SJA said:

Don't think OBR changed. ?

It did.

[SJA]

Please cite the new OBR definition reference.

[johnnyg08]

Yep. Matches OBR now. 

5.09 a2 Comment:

a foul tip can be caught after striking any part of the catcher's body or paraphernalia. 

[SJA]

Sorry guys, can't find any 2021 OBR Rules that have changed the def of Foul Tip. Help me out .

[johnnyg08]

2 minutes ago, SJA said:

Sorry guys, can't find any 2021 OBR Rules that have changed the def of Foul Tip. Help me out .

I have it and posted it above. It actually changed last year (2020). I don't have access to 2021 OBR until later this year. 

[SJA]

Well, according to Wendelstedt 2020 / 2021, it's still:

 

[johnnyg08]

5 minutes ago, SJA said:

Well, according to Wendelstedt 2020 / 2021, it's still:

 

Well, OBR is the guiding document. So at this point, I this Hunter's book is not accurate.

What's the copyright on the actual text? Did they just put a new cover on? 

It's there word-for-word in 2020 OBR

[SJA]

To the best of my knowledge and recently ref as of Dec 2020, it's what I posted above from WUS.

[johnnyg08]

5 minutes ago, johnnyg08 said:

Well, OBR is the guiding document. So at this point, I this Hunter's book is not accurate.

What's the copyright on the actual text? Did they just put a new cover on? 

It's there word-for-word in 2020 OBR

Unless it has changed recently...MLB.com never published the 2020 OBR

[johnnyg08]

1 minute ago, SJA said:

To the best of my knowledge and recently ref as of Dec 2020, it's what I posted above from WUS.

Well, I certainly wouldn't bring it up in front of everyone if you're currently down there at school. 

Pick a time when you can ask somebody about it in private so you're not "that guy" 

If you're trying for a job in MiLB next year...(since I don't believe there are any jobs this year)...don't bring it up at all. Do what you're told. 

Unless it changed from last year, their manual is not correct. 

I did purchase a 2020 OBR last year so I was able to get the changes. 

[SJA]

No there isn't a  new MLB OBR book to my knowledge. I'm just ref WUS Rules & Interp Manual.

[SJA]

No, I'm not in the school.

[johnnyg08]

5 minutes ago, SJA said:

No there isn't a  new MLB OBR book to my knowledge. I'm just ref WUS Rules & Interp Manual.

I'll see if I can post the 2020 changes and you can cross reference with your "updated" WUM.

The last WUM I have was the last one you could buy when they sold them publicly which I think was 2015. 

[SJA]

Is this what you're ref too: Official Baseball Rules: Home (umpirebible.com)

Rule 5.09(a)(2) Comment: "Legally caught" means in the catcher's glove before the ball touches the ground. It is not legal if the ball lodges in his clothing or paraphernalia; or if it touches the umpire and is caught by the catcher on the rebound.

If a foul tip first strikes the catcher's glove and then goes on through and is caught by both hands against his body or protector, before the ball touches the ground, it is a strike, and if third strike, batter is out. If smothered against his body or protector, it is a catch provided the ball struck the catcher's glove or hand first.

 

[Jimurray]

1 hour ago, SJA said:

Sorry guys, can't find any 2021 OBR Rules that have changed the def of Foul Tip. Help me out .

Believe them. NCAA does not lead OBR, they follow OBR. I think hard copy 2020 OBR books have the change. Buy one.

 

[johnnyg08]

1 minute ago, SJA said:

Is this what you're ref too: Official Baseball Rules: Home (umpirebible.com)

Rule 5.09(a)(2) Comment: "Legally caught" means in the catcher's glove before the ball touches the ground. It is not legal if the ball lodges in his clothing or paraphernalia; or if it touches the umpire and is caught by the catcher on the rebound.

If a foul tip first strikes the catcher's glove and then goes on through and is caught by both hands against his body or protector, before the ball touches the ground, it is a strike, and if third strike, batter is out. If smothered against his body or protector, it is a catch provided the ball struck the catcher's glove or hand first.

 

Nope. My 2020 hard copy. 

 

[SJA]

Where did you buy it ?

[Jimurray]

2 minutes ago, johnnyg08 said:

Nope. My 2020 hard copy. 

 

Well MLB dropped the ball on the hard copy and the online rules. They did change it and NCAA followed. I can't do it now but two or three threads here expounded about it at the beginning of the year.