OSU vs. S. Car 6/1/18

[zoops]

Bottom 7, ground ball up the middle fielded by F6, shovels the ball to F4 covering 2B.  F4 appears to barely pull his foot and U2 calls R1 safe.  F4 still tries to relay to 1B.  R1 makes no attempt to slide and appears to pretty clearly violate the FPSR rule if this were a routine DP turn.  Does being called safe absolve the runner from FPSR?  I was kind of shocked to see no argument put up by the defense on either the pulled foot or no FPSR call.  

[noumpere]

1 minute ago, zoops said:

  Does being called safe absolve the runner from FPSR?

No.

 

But, if F4 had pulled away from the base (toward right field, say) and R1 ran straight through the base without making contact or altering the play, that's not a violation. (posted as an example; I didn't see the play to know if that's what happened)

[zoops]

Hopefully someone more tech-savvy than me can post a video of it.  In real time and the replay or two they showed, it looked to me like the runner interfered by the definition of the FPSR rule.  

[Welpe]

I saw the clip in a Facebook group but can't download it to post it here. The runner came running into the base bent over at the waist trying to duck under the throw. There wasn't any contact.

I'm not familiar with NCAA rules. Does FPSR in NCAA require the runner to slide on a force play? Is he allowed to run into the base standing up?

[zoops]

Contact is not a requirement.  "Altering" is the key word, so yes the runner could go in standing up as long as he doesn't alter the play:

The intent of the force-play-slide rule is to ensure the safety of all players. This is a safety and an interference rule. Whether the defense could have completed the double play has no bearing on the applicability of this rule. This rule pertains to a force-play situation at any base, regardless of the number of outs.

Art. a.

On any force play, the runner must slide on the ground before the base and in a direct line between the two bases. It is permissible for the slider's momentum to carry him through the base in the baseline extended (see "Diagram" above).

Exception - A runner need not slide directly into a base as long as the runner slides or runs in a direction away from the fielder to avoid making contact or altering the play of the fielder. Interference shall not be called.

(1) "On the ground" means either a head-first slide or a slide with one leg and buttock on the ground before the base.

(2) "Directly into a base" means the runner's entire body (feet, legs, trunk and arms) must stay in a straight line between the bases.

[Welpe]

I understand contact isn't required, that's pretty universal across rulesets. I was simply describing the play since I didn't have a video to post.

It sounds like the rule is effectively the same as the NFHS FPSR in this instance.

[umpstu]

Would the rule no longer apply since the force was no longer in play?

[umpstu]

And I was watching the game and that was a good, tough call by the umpire.  Why he's working the big time.

[stkjock]

Funny, I saw anout 10 mins of the game and saw this play, great call and positioning, I too wondered about the lack of slide. 

 

This is the ESPN watch link  - play at 2:44

 

http://www.espn.com/watch/roadblock?id=3378269

[Jimurray]

3 hours ago, stkjock said:

Funny, I saw anout 10 mins of the game and saw this play, great call and positioning, I too wondered about the lack of slide. 

 

This is the ESPN watch link  - play at 2:44

 

http://www.espn.com/watch/roadblock?id=3378269

Haven't seen that yet but if a runner violated the NCAA FPSR but does not alter the play because the fielder knew enough to get out of the way, knowing that it is rarely called in his games, should the violation be called as the fielder altered his play before the runner could effect him.
 

I did see this on Samford FSU tonite:

I'm sure you can see the video live on some venue. It was later in the game. They got the DP so no harm no foul.

[Jimurray]

14 hours ago, stkjock said:

Funny, I saw anout 10 mins of the game and saw this play, great call and positioning, I too wondered about the lack of slide. 

 

This is the ESPN watch link  - play at 2:44

 

http://www.espn.com/watch/roadblock?id=3378269

After watching, R1 did not comply with this part of the FPSR:

"a.    On any force play, the runner must slide on the ground before the base and in
a direct line between the two bases. It is permissible for the slider’s momentum
to carry him through the base in the baseline extended (see diagram)."

I thought NCAA required a slide or peel off but the penalty is only for violating 1 thru 5.

BUT, does coming in without sliding violate #5 below?

"c.    Actions by a runner are illegal and interference shall be called if:
1) The runner slides or runs out of the base line in the direction of the fielder
and alters the play of a fielder (with or without contact);
2) The runner uses a rolling or cross-body slide and either makes contact with
or alters the play of a fielder;
3) The runner’s raised leg makes contact higher than the fielder’s knee when
in a standing position;
4) The runner slashes or kicks the fielder with either leg; or
5) The runner illegally slides toward or contacts the fielder even if the fielder
makes no attempt to throw to complete a play."

The fielder was in a non protected area on top of the base and if the runner had slid and popped up on the base it would not be a violation.

And here is some video from the Samford FSU game. It seems teams push the limits of the FPSR even when it's supposed to be addressed at the plate conference:

 

no_alter.MOV

[zoops]

Exception - A runner need not slide directly into a base as long as the runner slides or runs in a direction away from the fielder to avoid making contact or altering the play of the fielder. Interference shall not be called.

[MadMax]

4 hours ago, Jimurray said:

It seems teams push the limits of the FPSR even when it's supposed to be addressed at the plate conference:

You’d be very right in that assessment, but no amount of reiteration or emphasis of it at plate meetings is going to fix it.

Most FPSR violations in youth amateur baseball, whether it be under OBR or Fed rules, can be chalked up to naivety or ignorance. Sure, there are some high-intensity high school ballplayers that will stretch the limits of the Fed rule, but these violations occur, more often than not, within equally intense high school vs. high school games. This speaks to my main point, coming up in a moment.

In professional baseball, at all levels, there’s an understanding or unwritten protocol regarding hard slides and FPSR. At the end of the day, it’s every man for himself, and each man is trying to showcase his skills and talents, and is trying to get paid more or better. A R1, forced into a likely double play, has no real allegiance to the teammate who just hit him into this double play, and is not going to jeopardize his own ability to play tomorrow, or injure a fellow player – opponent or otherwise – who may be a teammate someday, or be represented by the same agency. Indeed, the FPSR for OBR was modified to what it is now because something needed to be done when that protocol is ignored. It’s illustrative to my point that the OBR FPSR modification was enacted largely due to the Utley-on-Tejada slide during the 2015 NLDS (read: a game with something at stake). 

In a similar vein, to revisit the topic before I hit the main point of this post, when we have amateur ballplayers on the cusp of being recruited or signed, playing in showcase or tournament games, they largely observe whatever FPSR is in place. So too, when we conduct summer college tuning / development / exposure leagues, the NCAA FPSR is not only adhered to, but we rarely see any instances of anything that would constitute a FPSR violation in the other two codes.

So what’s at the root of these FPSR violations in NCAA games, and the point of my post? Tribalism. There are such heightened stakes for the team that every play matters. If you have a chance to bust up a potential double play, you do it for the good of the team, regardless if you injure yourself or your opponent. This same theme plays out in college football, lacrosse, and hockey. College coaches are not actively teaching their players to violate FPSR restrictions, but they sure will condition and encourage them to stretch those limits as far as possible, with the difference between legal and illegal being razor thin. And what compounds this is the speed and intensity of the college game, especially in the tension of the postseason.

[Jimurray]

13 minutes ago, zoops said:

Exception - A runner need not slide directly into a base as long as the runner slides or runs in a direction away from the fielder to avoid making contact or altering the play of the fielder. Interference shall not be called.

So the head duck is a direction away from the fielder?

[zoops]

I suppose that argument could be made.  Seems as though we usually error on the side of calling a play like this a violation though.  

[johnnyg08]

On 6/1/2018 at 5:09 PM, Welpe said:

I saw the clip in a Facebook group but can't download it to post it here. The runner came running into the base bent over at the waist trying to duck under the throw. There wasn't any contact.

I'm not familiar with NCAA rules. Does FPSR in NCAA require the runner to slide on a force play? Is he allowed to run into the base standing up?

Anybody able to find this video? It's a little late now, but maybe it's floating around somewhere. 

[johnnyg08]

On 6/1/2018 at 5:09 PM, Welpe said:

I saw the clip in a Facebook group but can't download it to post it here. The runner came running into the base bent over at the waist trying to duck under the throw. There wasn't any contact.

I'm not familiar with NCAA rules. Does FPSR in NCAA require the runner to slide on a force play? Is he allowed to run into the base standing up?

@WelpeDo you remember the FB group by chance? 

[BT_Blue]

On 1/5/2019 at 6:50 PM, johnnyg08 said:

Anybody able to find this video? It's a little late now, but maybe it's floating around somewhere. 

 

On 6/1/2018 at 6:26 PM, stkjock said:

Funny, I saw anout 10 mins of the game and saw this play, great call and positioning, I too wondered about the lack of slide. 

 

This is the ESPN watch link  - play at 2:44

 

http://www.espn.com/watch/roadblock?id=3378269

Asked and answered 

[johnnyg08]

2 hours ago, BT_Blue said:

 

Asked and answered 

Do me a favor and see if the link still works? I couldn't get it to work and am under the impression that espn keeps those online for 30 days. 

So...does anybody have a video of this play? Or can point me in the direction of a replay of the game? 

Thank you! :-) 

[umpstu]

9 minutes ago, johnnyg08 said:

Do me a favor and see if the link still works? I couldn't get it to work and am under the impression that espn keeps those online for 30 days. 

So...does anybody have a video of this play? Or can point me in the direction of a replay of the game? 

Thank you! :-) 

Doesn't work for me.

[Haid D' Salaami]

On 6/2/2018 at 12:40 AM, Jimurray said:

Haven't seen that yet but if a runner violated the NCAA FPSR but does not alter the play because the fielder knew enough to get out of the way, knowing that it is rarely called in his games, should the violation be called as the fielder altered his play before the runner could effect him.
 

I did see this on Samford FSU tonite:

I'm sure you can see the video live on some venue. It was later in the game. They got the DP so no harm no foul.

 

This is so wrong and part of the problem today... the successful attempt of the double play has no bearing what so ever.. We need across the US to start calling it everywhere.

[johnnyg08]

6 hours ago, Haid D' Salaami said:

This is so wrong and part of the problem today... the successful attempt of the double play has no bearing what so ever.. We need across the US to start calling it everywhere.

Correct. In many cases, these occur with an R3...so there's a pretty stiff penalty for a violation. 

Make the call. 

[Jimurray]

8 hours ago, Haid D' Salaami said:

This is so wrong and part of the problem today... the successful attempt of the double play has no bearing what so ever.. We need across the US to start calling it everywhere.

I agree. The no harm comment was in reference to the umpire who no called it. But you see it no called at very high levels including the CWS. 

[johnnyg08]

Anybody have any updates on this play? 

Not having a ton of luck since it was from last June