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Women in the profession

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15 hours ago, BT_Blue said:

Be nice to me. It's been a long week. Lol

And yes, I know what level the NWL is cause there are 5 teams within a 4 or 5 hour radius of me.

All right, I will be nice. 

She worked last night in Everett on the plate to finish out that Series with Vancouver. So, they had to travel to new cities for tonights games which have new 3 game series coming up. She will work the bases. So if you pull up the Northwest League and go to scoreboard in just a little while you can check 'gameday' on each of the 4 games tonight until you find her. Then go watch her work the plate again tomorrow and wave to her and her partner.

added

As you know by now, the crew is in Vancouver.

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And BT_Blue, just to catch you up on a little of the crew history.c

Boise Hawks at Tri-City Dust Devils.

On July 2, in the top of the 7th inning, Boise 10th round draft pick, number  306 overall by the Colorado Rockies, bonus baby slotted for $138,000 but signed for $150,000, from the Oklahoma Sooners, Cade Harris, was summarily ejected by taking care of business plate umpire Emma Charlesworth-Seilers after striking out swinging to end the top of the inning. In 62 at bats so far this year, the eagle eye Harris has 21 walks, but also 21 strike outs.

Harris had just finished going O for 4 for the night with a swinging strikeout in the 1st, a called 3rd strike in the 2nd and a fly out in the 5th, before his dismissal from the contest in the 7th.

Best I can do.

P.S. 55 fans had left there seats and were already at the hot dog stand while 100 were lined up for for the facilities usage and missed the excitement and the take me out to the ball game song.

You are on your own from here on out.

added below 7/25---

On July 6th in a game between Vancouver and home team Everett AquaSox, in the bottom of the 3rd inning HPU Emma Charlesworth-Seilers took care of business bby dismissing Everett AquaSox manager Jose Moreno during a dispute.

On July 14th in a game between Tri-City and home team Hillsboro, in the top of the 5th inning, base umpire Emma Charlesworth-Seilers took care of business by dismissing Tri-City Dust Devil Manager Mike McCoy during a dispute.

As a side note, since Jen Pawol has moved up to Long A in the MWL now, while she was in the Short A NYP last year (2017), Jen had to take care of business as the HPU on July 14 and 31st, and again in August on the 23 and 31st, by dismissing 1 player in each of those games and 1 hitting coach on July 31st, over balls and strikes for the year.

Updated 12/15/18.

Back to basketball. 2 more women hired full time by NBA.

Still haven't seen a D1 woman basketball official promoted to a D1 men's staff, which is both a step up in achievement advancement and in financial opportunity advancement. Just pitiful on the various 'D1 Men's Conferences' to keep the women down on the farm with no possibility of achieving the highest plateau of NCAA Basketball Officiating. Look at all the men in the D1 Women program. Where is that D1 men's mentoring and advancement program for the women, just like in the NBA. The NCAA should have beaten the NBA by a mile with 300+ teams at D1 and a much much higher total staff numbers needed than the NBA. They do not want it to happen, pure and simple. They don't want your daughter to have the same opportunity that their dad's have. Never will, or it would have been done long ago with the D1 women feeder system right in front of their noses, just like the WNBA program. Keep them down in opportunity level they can obtain professionally and in financial opportunity they can obtain. Just pathetic/pitiful, and totally unconscionably designed/premeditated/intentional, or it would not be this way.

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Oh boy, NBA has added another woman to the staff and is working on inclusion. How many D1 basketball Power 5's  and lesser D1 Conferences added women to their staffs with an easy feeder system with the D1 women. How many are actively reaching out and recruiting to women, not just men, like the NBA is doing, and working to have 1 opening for a female official for every 1 opening for a male official.

Where is D1 equal opportunity for your (you guys on here)  """your daughters""" who now have a better chance of NBA, with tons fewer jobs to start with, than the D1 NCAA, in which the D1 NCAA has 450 officials working (job openings), on a night when all are playing, just like D1 NCAA baseball has 450 officials. Where is the outrage when your daughters are getting the shaft for equal opportunity when your sons are not. What if you do not have a son?

Why can your daughter not get that D1 NCAA men's opportunity that a son can get, and also get the financial opportunity (several D1 basketball men are working 95-105 games and making $200,000-300,000 maybe more) with the discrepancy between the men and women. Why do your daughters have to be treated as inferior/lacking opportunity against, still, in this day and time. Is your little girl not worthy enough, and only your own or someone's else's son worthy. Where are the men's conferences ""major reaching out""" to (is it really that hard? as they have been reaching out to men for years), and inviting the women, with the women's D1 feeder system already in place, like the WNBA for both men and women, in which the NBA is reaching out at their "acknowledged lack of diversity and opportunity". Does the D1 NCAA and men officials not care. Why are the D1 men officials who are fathers of little girls not screaming about no potential opportunity for their daughters to work D1 men's and follow in their father's footsteps, and only being kept down on the farm at the women's D1 level, which has a lower level of status and financial opportunity of the men? Look at all the men being reached out to, for working D1 women. Where is that reciprocal reaching out for women to work for D1 men? This is just embarrassing.

How many D1 women softball umpires are being reached out to right now in the off season, to work on D1 men's staffs in 2020 to offer them a higher opportunity at the men's level and the financial opportunities at the men's level?, Other than the former Navy Officer Kelly Dine who just worked D1 last year, and the Little League World Series this past year. She cannot be the only one that could work D1 men. I have seen others on TV working the D1 women softball. Have Jen Pawol and Emma Charlesworth-Sellers been offered spots on Big 5 or non Big 5 D1 men's Conferences from mid February to mid March before they go to spring training like active men MiLB umpires are offered.

Just where is that opportunity for women in D1 men's basketball and baseball? Oh the injustice, the inhumanity of the situation.

Let's go with you guys who have daughters. Explain it to them with your wives present, why what is good for the goose is not good for the gander. Why fair play and common decency are just lip service, and is a one way street, and what you are going to do about changing the situation, from your own exalted position, to make a wrong a right. You see it, you call it, you explain it. 

https://www-m.cnn.com/2019/10/23/us/nba-female-referees-jenna-schroeder-trnd/index.html

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'Fairness' is a matter of judging candidates by the same criteria. For high profile, highly paid positions, there will always be too many candidates who meet the criteria.

The criteria for working high-level basketball used to be connections: if you were connected to the establishment, you got a job.

Then it became connections plus skills, and some folks who only had connections screamed "unfair!"

Then it became connections, skills, plus athleticism. Then racial diversity became an additional criterion, then gender diversity. Always the cries of "unfair!"

Some push back that diversity (or whatever) is irrelevant to officiating. Even if that were true, surely we could say the same about connections, which have always been a criterion (even, for a long time, the only one). 

There will always be qualified candidates who don't get a job (any job). Why not spread the dissatisfaction across all groups proportionately? Nobody really thinks they're entitled to these gigs, do they?

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Oh yes, people do think they are entitled to assignments ... and to be fair, those people come in all shapes, sizes, colors, and levels.

It is wrong when somebody’s ability and talent are overlooked based on any physical characteristic.  You can’t fix this by doing more of the same.  It is equally wrong when somebody is put into a position based solely on physical characteristics and that job is beyond their ability.

What is sad is that we generally have come to associate “diversity” with the things we can see.  In our culture, in corporate America, in officiating ... we mistakenly believe “diversity” is a picture.  If you are building a diverse team, you want the exact opposite of that: it is the stuff “inside the book” — our different life experiences, cultures, perspectives, personalities, learning styles, communication styles, etc. — that adds up and makes a stronger overall team.  “Diversity” (or more appropriately “inclusion”) is recognizing the individual and the contribution that person can make to the team.

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On 11/8/2019 at 10:15 PM, dumbdumb said:

Why are the D1 men officials who are fathers of little girls not screaming about no potential opportunity for their daughters to work D1 men's and follow in their father's footsteps

You make a false belief here, in that you assume all men want the best for their daughters. Believe it or not, some men just want their daughters to get married and be mothers - and that women have no place in (pick one, multiple, or all) my workplace, my hobby, the leadership of my place of worship, or government.

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11 hours ago, yawetag said:

You make a false belief here, in that you assume all men want the best for their daughters. Believe it or not, some men just want their daughters to get married and be mothers - and that women have no place in (pick one, multiple, or all) my workplace, my hobby, the leadership of my place of worship, or government.

you don't get near Butcher Holler, being lost on an excursion, and figure out that there are probably other places all over this country in probably every state, and not know that what you say is true, irregardless of how I right in print, the spoken language.

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16 hours ago, yawetag said:

You make a false belief here, in that you assume all men want the best for their daughters. Believe it or not, some men just want their daughters to get married and be mothers - and that women have no place in (pick one, multiple, or all) my workplace, my hobby, the leadership of my place of worship, or government.

Realizing I'm speaking as a cis-gendered white hetero male here...

I really think it's *mostly* (not all, certainly) a matter of interest. In my local high school ranks, I know some female referees for volleyball and basketball that are *very* good. And no baseball umpires (but a few softball umpires). I *think* that's because they officiate what they played. Basketball, check. Volleyball, check. Softball, check. Baseball, nope.

I do want the best for my daughter, and tried to get her into officiating, but she isn't the least bit interested. Instead she's on her 3rd semester of college with a near full-ride academic scholarship and still has a 4.0. I let her decide what's the best for her, and she seems to be doing a pretty good job of that.

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5 hours ago, kylehutson said:

Realizing I'm speaking as a cis-gendered white hetero male here...

I really think it's *mostly* (not all, certainly) a matter of interest. In my local high school ranks, I know some female referees for volleyball and basketball that are *very* good. And no baseball umpires (but a few softball umpires). I *think* that's because they officiate what they played. Basketball, check. Volleyball, check. Softball, check. Baseball, nope.

I do want the best for my daughter, and tried to get her into officiating, but she isn't the least bit interested. Instead she's on her 3rd semester of college with a near full-ride academic scholarship and still has a 4.0. I let her decide what's the best for her, and she seems to be doing a pretty good job of that.

Good for her.

But, my main complaint, are the D1 women basketball women being reached out to/recruited by the men for promotion to D1 men's positions, like the NBA is doing for women officials. I don't think so. Same for D1 baseball. Men are being reached out to for positions on the women's roster and have been recruited for years, but that two way street does not appear to go both ways.

There is an obvious feeder system in place already for D1 women to move from the D1 women roster right over to the D1 men's roster, just like the NBA has the women in the  WNBA feeder system move over to the NBA, and they are being recruited and reached out to. This is not happening at the D1 level for the women, or IMHO you would have seen women working D1 already and probably even before seeing women in the NBA. Where was Dee Kantner after her NBA career?, or was she asked by the D1 men and she turned D1 men down? She came back to D1 women but was she even recruited by the men?

And I could not find a plate assignment for Kelly Dine in the mid-American conference either. Just a based assignment. Cripes, she is former military, so getting the chance to work men is a no brainer and about time for her. Good for the mid-american. Now to get her on the conference list, not just the non conference list. And hopefully mid-American is reaching out to other softball women on their d1 mid-American softball list for future D1 baseball consideration.

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You aren't wrong @kylehutson, but it also makes sense. I umpired baseball because it was the sport I knew and the sport I'd enjoy officiating. I imagine that's how it works for most officials, even if it's just a start to extending to other sports.

I've parented both my children (one male, one female) that they don't have to follow gender norms, but it's perfectly acceptable if they do. There is nothing wrong with a woman who wants to stay at home and raise children and cook dinner for her family - it's only wrong when she's placed in that position without her wanting it. Likewise, there's nothing wrong with a man who wants to do the same, even though society generally teaches that it's wrong.

Of course, both want to become YouTube stars, so I feel I may have failed in my communication.

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@kylehutson Is on the right track. There is greater female interest in sports like volleyball, basketball and even football than there is in baseball. Go to a typical baseball game it's a sausage fest of fans. The females that are there are 1, children; 2 dates of men there - maybe 50% interested in the game at best 3, real baseball fans. 

Here's another thing to look at it. The NFL has many female reporters covering it, NBA has a fair amount of female correspondents covering the NBA. MLB Network has a couple, but they're the only correspondents I can think of. TBS & FOX have brought women in to work the World Series from other sports but they're not covering MLB for the whole season. 

There in-lies the problem.

It has nothing to do with ability; it's interest. 

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7 hours ago, yawetag said:

Of course, both want to become YouTube stars, so I feel I may have failed in my communication.

<sad-trombone.mp3> goes here.....

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7 hours ago, Umpire in Chief said:

@kylehutson Is on the right track. There is greater female interest in sports like volleyball, basketball and even football than there is in baseball. Go to a typical baseball game it's a sausage fest of fans. The females that are there are 1, children; 2 dates of men there - maybe 50% interested in the game at best 3, real baseball fans. 

Here's another thing to look at it. The NFL has many female reporters covering it, NBA has a fair amount of female correspondents covering the NBA. MLB Network has a couple, but they're the only correspondents I can think of. TBS & FOX have brought women in to work the World Series from other sports but they're not covering MLB for the whole season. 

There in-lies the problem.

It has nothing to do with ability; it's interest. 

So, why is D1 college men in basketball, since the interest is there not reaching out. Imagine if your wife was D1 women and extremely talented and at the top with playoffs every year, but nobody from the D1 men were reaching out to her, recruiting her, when she saw the men being recruited all the time just because they were men. She would notice that men officials are being reached out/recruited for her women's D1 level to work with her, but no 2 way street for her working D1 men. Now, if she is being begged to work mens D1 and she has turned them down for whatever reason, then that would be a different story, but i do not see women being recruited for NBA turning down the chance, although some may/ or may not have.

Here is the article with the lady who was the white hat (referee) at a Ohio State spring scrimmage and looking to move up in further in football and is already D1. Show the part, quote below, in print to the wives. Why not make the guy have to be better than the next gal because people are going to say "he got the job because he is a man" over the woman.

and I do not agree with the statement made by the supervisor in this day and age. Imagine when you hired someone, you said they had to be better because they are a woman. If you are the best with some others, it does not matter, and after that statement he should have caught heck. So, if she is just as good but not better than the guy, the guy gets it. Why not have the guy have to be better than her, and if the guy is not better, she should get the job. Sorry Susan, i have 5 openings that i am giving to all the men who interviewed for this job with you, and you are just as good, but since you are only just as good but not just a little bit (whatever little bit means) better, I have to give the job to the men, because for appearances and the word on the street will be you got the job just because you are a woman. Gee whiz, has nothing changed. Is this what you guys say to the women when they are interviewed, or is that just still how it is in the back room where nobody hears. You basically have no chance unless you are better than the guys, even though you are just as good as the guys?? Are you guys out there still worried your buddies will cry woman lover, woman lover, and you will not stand up to them and say, she is just as good as you hoity toity guys are and she deserves a chance just like you for being just as good as you are. She should not be penalized and have to be better than you since I am hiring you and you are no better than her.

Just what gives??

I just don't understand in this day and age with this type of statement, other than it is a way to exclude someone, rather than include someone, UIC.

The quote which is in the article

"Does she have the capability? Yes. Is she getting better every year? Yes. Does she fit in and do the right things on and off the field with the crew? Yes," Carollo said. "Now, are you better than the next guy? You've got to be a little bit better than the next guy (and of course the guys are men- parens added by me dd) because people are going to say she got it just because she's a woman.

I am sure somebody has been in trouble in the not too recent past, somewhere out there by this type statement in the current day.

https://www.espn.com/college-football/story/_/id/19254591/the-rapid-remarkable-rise-college-football-official-amanda-sauer

 

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I was all set to weigh in with a perspective that hasn't been represented in this thread. But then I realized anyone who had to look up "cis-gendered" to find out what it meant is probably so out of touch with today's culture that nobody cares what he thinks about this topic.

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On 11/12/2019 at 6:48 AM, dumbdumb said:

Good for her.

But, my main complaint, are the D1 women basketball women being reached out to/recruited by the men for promotion to D1 men's positions, like the NBA is doing for women officials. I don't think so. Same for D1 baseball. Men are being reached out to for positions on the women's roster and have been recruited for years, but that two way street does not appear to go both ways.

There is an obvious feeder system in place already for D1 women to move from the D1 women roster right over to the D1 men's roster, just like the NBA has the women in the  WNBA feeder system move over to the NBA, and they are being recruited and reached out to. This is not happening at the D1 level for the women, or IMHO you would have seen women working D1 already and probably even before seeing women in the NBA. Where was Dee Kantner after her NBA career?, or was she asked by the D1 men and she turned D1 men down? She came back to D1 women but was she even recruited by the men?

And I could not find a plate assignment for Kelly Dine in the mid-American conference either. Just a based assignment. Cripes, she is former military, so getting the chance to work men is a no brainer and about time for her. Good for the mid-american. Now to get her on the conference list, not just the non conference list. And hopefully mid-American is reaching out to other softball women on their d1 mid-American softball list for future D1 baseball consideration.

Crystal Hogan got hired by Bobby Dibler to officiate men's college basketball in the Pac-12/West Coast Conference/Mountain West/WAC/Big Sky consortium. She won't be the last woman working men's basketball either. 

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On 11/8/2019 at 8:15 PM, dumbdumb said:

Where is the outrage when your daughters are getting the shaft for equal opportunity when your sons are not. What if you do not have a son?

I really hate it when people tell me what I should be outraged about.   The social change that has occurred in just the past generation or two surpasses the combined social change that occurred the 2000 years before that.   I'm not going to complain if some things still aren't exactly where we'd like them to be...they'll get there...even if it means if we have to wait for some depression and war babies to die off.

My daughter is fine and studying chemical engineering in university.  She has her opportunities.  She's also about one of six white females in a program filled with men of all colors, and Asian women.

I'm a pragmatist and have taught my daughter to be as well.   She played club softball and has learned the merit of fighting for your spot on the team and in the lineup.

She's also learned that as a female engineer she will sometimes get picked ahead of men so companies and managers can feel good about themselves to be inclusive...and she also knows that along with that opportunity will come the fact that she's surrounded by men that will doubt her abilities because of her gender, and will ogle her ass all day long.

And in every scenario she's had to date, she's proven her skill and value, and has become one of the guys, and one of the team.

I'll take pride in the fact that my daughter is a strong, independent woman who has chosen her path, and will continue to do so.


I don't have time to be outraged 'cause some other guy's daughter can't officiate a March Madness game.

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7 minutes ago, beerguy55 said:

I really hate it when people tell me what I should be outraged about.

:sarcasm:hate it enough to be outraged?

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8 hours ago, Aging_Arbiter said:

:sarcasm:hate it enough to be outraged?


I am sarcastically outraged by your outrageous sarcasm about @beerguy55’s outrage at being told what to be outraged over.  

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Well, let's see if the below NCAA women from the NCAA Tournament final 4 over past years, receive an offer from the D1 men's Conferences in their respective areas. Many times one starts at the non-Con level first and then moves into the Conference level next, as a natural progression step.

2019 Cheryl Floras, Lisa Jones, Beverly Roberts,Gina Cross, Dee Kantner, Maj Forsberg, Brenda Pantoja

2018: Lisa Mattingly, Denise Brooks, Penny Davis, Lisa Jones, Karen Prieto, Dee Kantner, Brenda Pantoja

2017: Felicia Grinter, Michol Murray,  Lisa Jones, Maj Forsberg, Dee Kantner, Brenda Pantoja, Tina Napier

2016: Brenda Pantoja, Felicia Grinter, Denise Brooks, Lisa Mattingly, Lisa Jones, Dee Kantner, Beverly Roberts

2015: Lisa Mattingly, Felicia Grinter, Maj Forsberg, Dee Kantner, Denise Brooks.

Let's see what happens.

 

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8 hours ago, yawetag said:

@dumbdumb, are you sure any of those women want to move on to D1 Men?

 

Believe i have broached the, "or are the women being asked/reached out to/recruited, but turning down the opportunity for 'whatever reason' question before, and if they are that is fine, just like I am sure there are men that have or would have to turn down the opportunity for 'whatever reason'. Just IMHO they are not being reached out to, (like Ditmer has taken the bull by the horns and done), but the men are.

And what D1 conference did that former NFL pro official/former supervisor work, before becoming an NFL official, that has stepped up to help the women in football, like the lady who is in the NFL right now that he helped.

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I agree that there are women officials who want to work their sports' highest levels. I think it's bad form to support your argument with a list of women who you have no direct knowledge of having that want.

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On 11/20/2019 at 3:19 PM, dumbdumb said:

Just IMHO they are not being reached out to

This is not an opinion, it's an assertion, and it's irresponsible to not offer something to support it - it's an opinion based on nothing, has no foundation and is grounded only in your imagination.   I'm not sure what moronic shift happened in high schools and universities in the past generation that makes people think that every accusation is simply an "opinion" that requires no accountability.   

It's a simple concept - if your opinion involves something that can't be inherently factual (eg. whether or not beets taste good) you don't need to justify it...if your opinion involves a statement that will be, in the end, inherently correct or incorrect, back it up....ESPECIALLY when you are accusing someone of doing or not doing something.

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On 11/19/2019 at 2:44 PM, beerguy55 said:

I really hate it when people tell me what I should be outraged about.   The social change that has occurred in just the past generation or two surpasses the combined social change that occurred the 2000 years before that.   I'm not going to complain if some things still aren't exactly where we'd like them to be...they'll get there...even if it means if we have to wait for some depression and war babies to die off.

My daughter is fine and studying chemical engineering in university.  She has her opportunities.  She's also about one of six white females in a program filled with men of all colors, and Asian women.

I'm a pragmatist and have taught my daughter to be as well.   She played club softball and has learned the merit of fighting for your spot on the team and in the lineup.

She's also learned that as a female engineer she will sometimes get picked ahead of men so companies and managers can feel good about themselves to be inclusive...and she also knows that along with that opportunity will come the fact that she's surrounded by men that will doubt her abilities because of her gender, and will ogle her ass all day long.

And in every scenario she's had to date, she's proven her skill and value, and has become one of the guys, and one of the team.

I'll take pride in the fact that my daughter is a strong, independent woman who has chosen her path, and will continue to do so.


I don't have time to be outraged 'cause some other guy's daughter can't officiate a March Madness game.

Thank you!  I loved your post, but related to it strong enough to it that I had to comment as well.  I have three daughters who are beginning to make their way in life, and I am trying to establish the same qualities in mine that you've instilled in your daughter. 

 

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