Hesitation or Stopping During Delivery- No Runners

[Guest Wayne]

During a recent L.L. 12U tournament game the opposing pitcher was altering his delivery, switching back from wind up/stretch. At times the pitcher would also change up his wind up tempo, quick stride, slow and exaggerated leg kick etc.. This was very effective for causing timing issues for the batters. For one pitch, in the wind up, he raised his leg and actually stopped at the apex of raised leg, sort of balanced on his mound foot with his leg raised for a split second, then attempted stride forward to continued to throw the ball.  The umpire called a balk as he prepared to release the ball. There WAS NOT ANY runners on base.

The player's head coach had issue with the call. He started to really give it to the ump. Telling him that there wasn't any runners on, what is the penalty? He said does the runner get second now (sarcastically, again no runners on base). The coach asked what happens if he does it again. The ump said its a balk, again the coach was like OK, is it a ball, a dead ball, what??, etc. The ump didn't really offer up any sort of explanation. It seemed like an awkward moment for the ump, almost like he was second guessing his own call.

I tried to research the call. I don't think its a balk as there wasn't any runner(s) on base. I also cant really determine if its an illegal pitch, the closest thing to an illegal pitch is if the pitcher intentionally delays the game, but I think its a weak argument that the game was being delayed.

Thoughts?

 

 

[noumpere]

It most likely should be "nothing."  But, there's no reason for the coach to "really give it to the ump."

[stkjock]

LL @ 12U doesn't have balks best of my recollection as there's no leading and no way to be deceptive to the runner

 

now maybe an illegal pitch could be called, however, not having my green book at hand I cannot be certain.

[Rich Ives]

3 hours ago, Guest Wayne said:

During a recent L.L. 12U tournament game the opposing pitcher was altering his delivery, switching back from wind up/stretch. At times the pitcher would also change up his wind up tempo, quick stride, slow and exaggerated leg kick etc.. This was very effective for causing timing issues for the batters. For one pitch, in the wind up, he raised his leg and actually stopped at the apex of raised leg, sort of balanced on his mound foot with his leg raised for a split second, then attempted stride forward to continued to throw the ball.  The umpire called a balk as he prepared to release the ball. There WAS NOT ANY runners on base.

The player's head coach had issue with the call. He started to really give it to the ump. Telling him that there wasn't any runners on, what is the penalty? He said does the runner get second now (sarcastically, again no runners on base). The coach asked what happens if he does it again. The ump said its a balk, again the coach was like OK, is it a ball, a dead ball, what??, etc. The ump didn't really offer up any sort of explanation. It seemed like an awkward moment for the ump, almost like he was second guessing his own call.

I tried to research the call. I don't think its a balk as there wasn't any runner(s) on base. I also cant really determine if its an illegal pitch, the closest thing to an illegal pitch is if the pitcher intentionally delays the game, but I think its a weak argument that the game was being delayed.

Thoughts?

 

 

First clue:  It can only be a balk if there are runners.

It's nothing.

 

[noumpere]

1 hour ago, stkjock said:

now maybe an illegal pitch could be called, however, not having my green book at hand I cannot be certain.

It's possible that LL is different, but in OBR, an Illegal Pitch is only a quick pitch, or pitching with the pivot foot not in contact with the rubber.

 

Everything else (along these lines) is a "don't do that" -- illegal, with no specific penalty.  If it continues, the player can be ejected, but it never gets that far.

[Jimurray]

19 minutes ago, noumpere said:

It's possible that LL is different, but in OBR, an Illegal Pitch is only a quick pitch, or pitching with the pivot foot not in contact with the rubber.

 

Everything else (along these lines) is a "don't do that" -- illegal, with no specific penalty.  If it continues, the player can be ejected, but it never gets that far.

LL is different. In majors and below any 8.05 violation with runners on is penalized with a ball and called an illegal pitch. I like to say the are two ILLEGAL PITCHES and then some other illegal pitches. 

Regarding the OP, unless it was excessive, I wouldn't penalize the Japonese windup. It would be a do not do that with no runners.

[Rich Ives]

14 minutes ago, Jimurray said:

LL is different. In majors and below any 8.05 violation with runners on is penalized with a ball and called an illegal pitch. I like to say the are two ILLEGAL PITCHES and then some other illegal pitches. 

Regarding the OP, unless it was excessive, I wouldn't penalize the Japonese windup. It would be a do not do that with no runners.

No No.

Only the "official"  illegal pitches are punished with no runners. 

[Jimurray]

10 minutes ago, Rich Ives said:

No No.

Only the "official"  illegal pitches are punished with no runners. 

Did I say different?

[beerguy55]

Even if there are runners, in rule sets where there are no lead offs (eg. LL minor, any level of softball) there can be no balks, as you are unable to deceive the runner.

It was an awkward moment for the ump because the ump wasn't clear on the rule, and/or may not fully understand the reason/concept of the balk rule.  He did, however, know somewhere instinctively, that the pitcher's maneuver wasn't kosher.  Just didn't know exactly what to do about it.  However, that's no reason for a coach to publicly ridicule said umpire.  Eject the asshat.  

[Guest Wayne]

Guys thanks for the input, I appreciate it. The league or more importantly this particular game/tourney allowed for leads and steals.

[Jimurray]

3 minutes ago, Guest Wayne said:

Guys thanks for the input, I appreciate it. The league or more importantly this particular game/tourney allowed for leads and steals.

What size field? You could have 12U playing LL intermediate on a 50/70 field. 

[stkjock]

10 minutes ago, Jimurray said:

What size field? You could have 12U playing LL intermediate on a 50/70 field. 

 

13 minutes ago, Guest Wayne said:

Guys thanks for the input, I appreciate it. The league or more importantly this particular game/tourney allowed for leads and steals.

yea, what division?  12U is typically Majors, if it was Intermediate, then it's LLI "Intermediate League" not LL

[Guest Wayne]

OK, sounds like I didn't describe the division properly or mention the field size. It was a 50/70 and would be considered an Intermediate division. Again, steals/lead are allowed, no runners on base for this situation.

[maven]

Day game or night?

[stkjock]

1 minute ago, maven said:

Day game or night?

twinight  

[Mister B]

Many 12u LL teams here play on 50/70 fields for the experience and most (non-LL) tournaments 11u and up are on 50/70 fields. 

I will usually call time, tell the pitcher that if he deviates from his normal delivery like that with runners on, he will get balked. (not for LL majors) although I know a couple kids that will be playing 50/70 next spring, so I did talk to them about extra pitching movements. If you want to add a little hitch to your pitch, you better do it every time. 

I did have a quick pitch that I called as an illegal. Batter wasn't ready, pitcher, never looked at the batter until he was throwing. The coach said the batter was in the box therefore he should have been ready. Plus how could his pitcher know he wasn't ready as he wasn't looking. 

[Jimurray]

23 minutes ago, Mister B said:

Many 12u LL teams here play on 50/70 fields for the experience and most (non-LL) tournaments 11u and up are on 50/70 fields. 

I will usually call time, tell the pitcher that if he deviates from his normal delivery like that with runners on, he will get balked. (not for LL majors) although I know a couple kids that will be playing 50/70 next spring, so I did talk to them about extra pitching movements. If you want to add a little hitch to your pitch, you better do it every time. 

I did have a quick pitch that I called as an illegal. Batter wasn't ready, pitcher, never looked at the batter until he was throwing. The coach said the batter was in the box therefore he should have been ready. Plus how could his pitcher know he wasn't ready as he wasn't looking. 

So you would probably have a little problem with Marcus Stroman, Toronto Blue Jay.

[Mister B]

Looks like Stroman's hitch comes after the ball has been pitched. Got no problem with that. His quick pitch was illegal. 

I think all the kids want to have a unique motion like Kershaw. I just think, it better happen every time. 

 

[noumpere]

1 hour ago, Mister B said:

I will usually call time, tell the pitcher that if he deviates from his normal delivery like that with runners on, he will get balked. (not for LL majors) although I know a couple kids that will be playing 50/70 next spring, so I did talk to them about extra pitching movements. If you want to add a little hitch to your pitch, you better do it every time.

There is no rule that states that the pitcher cannot deviate or "better do it every time."  Either the individual pitch is legal or it's not, but just a variation is legal.

[Jimurray]

1 hour ago, Mister B said:

Looks like Stroman's hitch comes after the ball has been pitched. Got no problem with that. His quick pitch was illegal. 

I think all the kids want to have a unique motion like Kershaw. I just think, it better happen every time. 

 

You haven't seen his full repertoire.

[Mister B]

8 hours ago, Jimurray said:

You haven't seen his full repertoire.

Nope, barely have time to watch the world series. 

[Aging_Arbiter]

On ‎10‎/‎31‎/‎2017 at 10:21 AM, Rich Ives said:

First clue:  It can only be a balk if there are runners.

'nuff said