RLI Called in LLWS Regional Maryland vs DC

[stkjock]

I realize a single image is hard to use for this call, I don't have a video at this time, it happened maybe 5 mins ago in the game.

Situation, 2 out, R3, DK3 - RLI called, no run scores.  

the runner ran then entire way in the position (relative to the foul line) he's in near the bag. Thrown ball from F2 hits runner in the back/side. I think it's the correct call, the thought that jumped to the front of my mind, is BR close enough to the bag that his position at this time would allow him to be judged in a legal spot?

 

The image shows the runner and the ball just before they arrive at the base the second image has a highlight arrow to show the ball's position.

 

replay available on ESPN now:

play occurs at 50:00

http://www.espn.com/watch/player?bucketId=2&id=3134624

[Senor Azul]

From the 2013 Wendelstedt Rules and Interpretations Manual (p. 177):

“A runner that is running the entire distance outside of the running lane will not be protected if he interferes with a play at first base, even if it is in his last stride or step to the base. In order to be protected, this last step must be when he first exits the running lane.”

[johnnyg08]

This is a pretty easy call. I'm not even saying that the kid did anything intentional. He violated...sure. For every time is has been called on him there's probably another 50 times where he ended up on 2b or 3b due to one of our brethren not calling it for a multitude of reasons. 

As a coach...it's very easy to teach your kids....run to first base in the runner's lane. 

Wouldn't that be one of the easiest things a coach could teach a baseball player? 

 

 

 

[Rich Ives]

4 minutes ago, stkjock said:

I realize a single image is hard to use for this call, I don't have a video at this time, it happened maybe 5 mins ago in the game.

Situation, 2 out, R3, DK3 - RLI called, no run scores.

the runner ran then entire way in the position (relative to the foul line) he's in near the bag.  I think it's the correct call, the thought that jumped to the front of my mind, is BR close enough to the bag that his position at this time would allow him to be judged in a legal spot?

 

The image shows the runner and the ball just before they arrive at the base the second image has a highlight arrow to show the ball's position.

If he ran all the way while out of the lane then the step-out-near-the-base doesn't matter, it's RLI.

[CJK]

Man, I think it's awfully tough to judge him as "interfer[ing] with the fielder taking the throw at first base" from that picture.

[stkjock]

Rich - yea, that was my thought as well

 

I'll have to see if I can look at the video again, he may not have been to the inside of the foul line as much as I first thought upon reflection.

[stkjock]

Just now, CJK said:

Man, I think it's awfully tough to judge him as "interfer[ing] with the fielder taking the throw at first base" from that picture.

CJK - the ball hit the runner

[maven]

I don't know whether LL has a modification of straight OBR for RLI, but with F2 and F3 outside and the runner inside, pro umpires are not likely to call RLI on a bad throw inside that hits the runner.

That's what I see in the still; I reserve judgment on the call until the video is posted.

[JSam21]

If it happened the way that you said and the runner was outside of the lane the entire way, then he does not get protection for the last step. 

[Jimurray]

1 hour ago, maven said:

I don't know whether LL has a modification of straight OBR for RLI, but with F2 and F3 outside and the runner inside, pro umpires are not likely to call RLI on a bad throw inside that hits the runner.

That's what I see in the still; I reserve judgment on the call until the video is posted.

High school umpires would also probably not call RLI on that also. 

[maven]

6 minutes ago, JSam21 said:

If it happened the way that you said and the runner was outside of the lane the entire way, then he does not get protection for the last step. 

If it happened as I'm envisioning, then he does not require "protection" (or the exception for the last step or two).

RLI properly called involves 3 things: runner outside lane + (quality) throw + hindrance of fielder taking throw.

The exception/permission to be outside the lane for the last step or two concerns only the first condition. The second condition is required independent of the first: without a (quality) throw, the runner's position becomes irrelevant. The rationale is that the fielder can't be hindered taking a throw that he wouldn't have fielded anyway.

All that said, I don't know whether this was ruled correctly; but in the still shot it looks suspect, on the grounds that the throw wasn't good enough. My point here is to focus concern on the throw, not on the runner's position.

[stkjock]

video available

 

replay available on ESPN now:

play occurs at 50:00

http://www.espn.com/watch/player?bucketId=2&id=3134624

[JonnyCat]

Love the soccer flop. Did you notice the kids reaction when he got called out?

[stkjock]

7 minutes ago, JonnyCat said:

Love the soccer flop. Did you notice the kids reaction when he got called out?

right after the throw hits him?

[grayhawk]

I think it was the correct call. That was a catchable throw if it hadn't hit the runner in the back while he was out of the lane.  Could a throw more to the outside have retired the runner?  Yes.  The bottom line is that the throw was catchable, and the runner was out of the lane all the way down.  Run in the lane, and you protect yourself from being called for it.  

[stkjock]

funny thing to me after I watched it again, had he run in the lane, the results IMHO would have been the same, yet he'd have been in compliance and not been called for RLI.

[umpstu]

1 hour ago, grayhawk said:

I think it was the correct call. That was a catchable throw if it hadn't hit the runner in the back while he was out of the lane.  Could a throw more to the outside have retired the runner?  Yes.  The bottom line is that the throw was catchable, and the runner was out of the lane all the way down.  Run in the lane, and you protect yourself from being called for it.  

In looking at the runners feet the last few steps I can't tell if he's out of the lane. I think he corrected himself.

[Guest ftb2ss]

Having the ability to watch this on video numerous times I see that he was not running in the lane but if you see where F3 is at the time he hits the lane he is already on the foul side of 1st.  I umpire USSSA and when a F3 is on the foul side it is expected that the BR will run to the inside to prevent a collision at 1st.  In my judgment the BR was inside to prevent a collision with F3, BR was hit by F2 within 1 step of the base from a throw from foul territory, BR at 1st, R3 scores.

Move BR over to the right 1 foot and the exact same thing happens, a bad pitch followed by a F2 not being able to stop the pitch and a F2 bad throw results in BR out, doesn't quite pass judgment.  The biggest piece for me here is that F2 and F3 where both in foul territory, if the throw from F2 comes from fair territory RLI without question.

 

 

[Guest Guest Carl]

17 minutes ago, Guest ftb2ss said:

Having the ability to watch this on video numerous times I see that he was not running in the lane but if you see where F3 is at the time he hits the lane he is already on the foul side of 1st.  I umpire USSSA and when a F3 is on the foul side it is expected that the BR will run to the inside to prevent a collision at 1st.  In my judgment the BR was inside to prevent a collision with F3, BR was hit by F2 within 1 step of the base from a throw from foul territory, BR at 1st, R3 scores.

Move BR over to the right 1 foot and the exact same thing happens, a bad pitch followed by a F2 not being able to stop the pitch and a F2 bad throw results in BR out, doesn't quite pass judgment.  The biggest piece for me here is that F2 and F3 where both in foul territory, if the throw from F2 comes from fair territory RLI without question.

 

 

LL Rule is 6.05 (j).  There is no exception for moving outside/inside the lane to avoid a fielder attempting to take a throw, only an exception to move outside/inside the lane to avoid a fielder attempting to field a batted ball.  It appears that the runner may have moved inside to avoid the 1B who was taking a position on the foul side of the bag but that doesn't help him avoid the out call here.

[johnnyg08]

Watched the video once in real time. I don't have a problem w/ the call the runner was non compliant the entire way down so he's not afforded protection the last couple strides to the base which is in fair territory. 

Nice job.

[Jimurray]

3 hours ago, johnnyg08 said:

Watched the video once in real time. I don't have a problem w/ the call the runner was non compliant the entire way down so he's not afforded protection the last couple strides to the base which is in fair territory. 

Nice job.

Did you mean he's not afforded protection? BTW the Little League 2017 "...Right Call" agrees with OBR that "for the runner to be called out...the ball must be thrown with some accuracy and quality toward the defensive player at 1st base. This call can go either way and argued either way. The rule is an anachronism and should go away. Been called right, no called, called wrong, no called wrong at the highest level, MLB. Any other base find a throwing lane, which they had, and missed it.

[johnnyg08]

OR...it can simply be called correctly so more runners learn to be compliant. More umpires need to have the seeds to call it and oddly enough runners will begin to follow the rule then it's no longer a problem. 

The half swing is the epitome of judgment calls which also leads to several ejections or escalated game tension...certainly that shouldn't go away.  

[Jimurray]

7 minutes ago, johnnyg08 said:

OR...it can simply be called correctly so more runners learn to be compliant. More umpires need to have the seeds to call it and oddly enough runners will begin to follow the rule then it's no longer a problem. 

The half swing is the epitome of judgment calls which also leads to several ejections or escalated game tension...certainly that shouldn't go away.  

I would agree that seeds are lacking in many of amateur baseball RLI situations which are blatant. But I don't think seeds or intellect are lacking on posters on both sides of this call or are lacking in MLB umpires. This rule is an anachronism and is problematic in it's judgement. I only can say that I got the impression Jim Evans thought the same and I'm sorry if I am mistaken about that impression. 

[johnnyg08]

Oh sure. At a amateur level there is LOTS of work to be done in many facets of the game. 

With respect to Evan's opinion or anything else in MLB, I have no idea. I will defer to those who are in or nearer that circle than me. 

[Jimurray]

1 hour ago, johnnyg08 said:

Oh sure. At a amateur level there is LOTS of work to be done in many facets of the game. 

With respect to Evan's opinion or anything else in MLB, I have no idea. I will defer to those who are in or nearer that circle than me. 

I was just in a circle of bumpkin umpires, speaking for myself alone, at a Desert Classic. And it was just an impression. I would not ask Jim Evans to confirm his opinion of the rule. But he has opined about it in a controversial call a long time ago. 

[BrianC14]

I'm not sure comparing LL to MLB is the appropriate way to be judging this, especially when judging the quality of the throw.  

Aren't we umpires supposed to be officiating to the level of the game?   It's not as though the throw was air mailed or in the dirt....

Just my  $0.02.