Back pick at 3B

[BrianC14]

So we all (I assume) get the idea of the base umpire getting his calls, including tag plays.

Yesterday this situation presented itself.  I'm at the plate, partner is in "B", R3.   Apparently, BU had chosen B to stay to the weak side of the right handed batter.   (Full disclosure:  I would not and do not do this, but apparently he decided to go there).  

Batter hits a sharp one-hopper to F1, who looks R3 back and then throws B/R out at first easily.  As F1 releases the throw to F3, R3 then moves quickly down the line toward home several steps and stops, and begins a slow retreat to 3B.   F3 fires it back to F5 and a tag is applied, which is an easy call given my angle from my position.  R3 is clearly out by a step or two (R3 was not sliding), but as I give a glance to BU, he doesn't immediately signal and instead is looking at me; it was readily apparent that he was straight-lined on the tag; that's understandable, and I recalled later that he would likely have been straight-lined even if he'd been in "C" due to the positions of R3 and F5.   I immediately call R3 out.   

How would my fellow umpires have handled this?

[LMSANS]

I think you handled it fine.

i had a similar situation (at least I think it's similar). R1 R2, F1 attempts a pickoff at 2B and throws into CF. Both runners take off and my partner turns and races toward 3B. F8 throws to F4 at 2B and gets the runner. BU has his back to play, everybody looks at him, he looks at me. I call the out. I saw it clearly. OC comes out and calmly says that's not my call. I say not normally, but I made it. He nods his head and tells my partner that I saved him.  It was a scrimmage, so not a big deal. My only problem is that my partner wouldn't acknowledge the play during post game.

[Stk004]

From a mechanics standpoint I, like you, would have started in C. Now, with the sharp comebacker and F1 easily retiring the BR, it's unlikely I would've gotten all the way over to B. I would've began to move that way but no need to get as close as possible if the BR is out by 50 feet. 

After the BR is retired, R3 is BU's only runner. BU should be gaining as much distance as possible towards R3, anticipating that play. To answer your question, BU should be making a call. Safe or out, call what he has, fix it if need be. R3 is his only runner and only responsibility at this point, this should be his 100% of the way. Kudos to you and your partner for communicating and simply getting this right. In the moment, given BU was way out of position, you did the right thing. It's just a situation that should (I know I know, "in a perfect world) be prevented. 

[LMSANS]

Did you pregame the 2nd play on the infield?

[maven]

I don't get it: even if he overcommitted toward 1B, how can he be straightlined on R3 going back onto 3B? He's got that wide open from anywhere in the infield.

I suspect he wasn't straightlined, he either didn't see it, or he thought it was your call. I have no complaint about a heads-up PU taking a call he was 100% on when BU had a brain fart: somebody needs to call the obvious. But I hope you reminded him after that BU has all the bases when the ball never leaves the infield.

[BrianC14]

2 minutes ago, LMSANS said:

Did you pregame the 2nd play on the infield?

In a word. Yes.  But the pregame coverage consisted of " When the ball stays in the infield, you have the calls on the bases. "  Pretty generic.

[BrianC14]

8 minutes ago, maven said:

I don't get it: even if he overcommitted toward 1B, how can he be straightlined on R3 going back onto 3B? He's got that wide open from anywhere in the infield.

I suspect he wasn't straightlined, he either didn't see it, or he thought it was your call. I have no complaint about a heads-up PU taking a call he was 100% on when BU had a brain fart: somebody needs to call the obvious. But I hope you reminded him after that BU has all the bases when the ball never leaves the infield.

I wouldn't call it over committed to 1B, as both plays happened very quickly, and he made the call at 1B from his B spot, with B/R out by a good 45 feet.  He is a good umpire, it's just that  (in my opinion ) he choice of B position might not have been fully considered.  His being straight lined was due to F5 coming inside the bag to take the throw, I think. 

[Jimurray]

20 minutes ago, maven said:

I don't get it: even if he overcommitted toward 1B, how can he be straightlined on R3 going back onto 3B? He's got that wide open from anywhere in the infield.

I suspect he wasn't straightlined, he either didn't see it, or he thought it was your call. I have no complaint about a heads-up PU taking a call he was 100% on when BU had a brain fart: somebody needs to call the obvious. But I hope you reminded him after that BU has all the bases when the ball never leaves the infield.

Evans and CCA have PU cover 3B with R1 and a ground ball when R1 is safe at 2B and attempts 3B. The PU is already in that general area for the slide at 2B. 

[BrianC14]

22 minutes ago, Jimurray said:

Evans and CCA have PU cover 3B with R1 and a ground ball when R1 is safe at 2B and attempts 3B. The PU is already in that general area for the slide at 2B. 

That's not this situation at all, though.  We had R3 only.   And locally, in the situation you describe, we have BU getting all the bases when the ball stays in the infield.   The reason being that if you have HPU covering 3B on R1 going to 3B with HPU covering 3B, this could be trouble if the ball gets away from F5 and then the runner that went into 3B now attempts to get to the plate.  Yes, HPU would have to be responsible for a play at the plate, but the positioning for HPU would be, shall we say, less than desirable.   

 

[noumpere]

5 hours ago, BrianC14 said:

Yesterday this situation presented itself.  I'm at the plate, partner is in "B", R3.   Apparently, BU had chosen B to stay to the weak side of the right handed batter.  

Some mechanics have the umpire in C only when a steal of third is possible (that is, an R2 and no R3).  Maybe your partner was used to working those mechanics.

 

But, no matter where he starts, he needs the same type of "double play drift" footwork he would use with R1 and the first play at second.

[Replacematt]

On 7/1/2017 at 1:01 PM, Jimurray said:

Evans and CCA have PU cover 3B with R1 and a ground ball when R1 is safe at 2B and attempts 3B. The PU is already in that general area for the slide at 2B. 

Don't count on CCA having PU in that area next year. 

[noumpere]

4 hours ago, Matt said:

Don't count on CCA having PU in that area next year. 

Thank goodness.  I was pushing for that change ever since they put it in the book.

[Jimurray]

5 hours ago, Matt said:

Don't count on CCA having PU in that area next year. 

They gonna have him go to the 1B side of the mound for a better angle of the slide?

[blue23ll]

The mechanic of having PU cover 3rd with balls still in the infield has changed several times over the years. I don't think any place I have ever worked used that mechanic. I was particularly interested in the double play mechanic that has PU moving into the 'library' on the 3rd base line to monitor the slide at 2nd, then heading across the infield to cover the pulled foot/ball out of play situation on the play at 1st. Seemed rather strange to me. 

 

[Jimurray]

1 hour ago, blue23ll said:

The mechanic of having PU cover 3rd with balls still in the infield has changed several times over the years. I don't think any place I have ever worked used that mechanic. I was particularly interested in the double play mechanic that has PU moving into the 'library' on the 3rd base line to monitor the slide at 2nd, then heading across the infield to cover the pulled foot/ball out of play situation on the play at 1st. Seemed rather strange to me. 

 

I don't know of any mechanics that take the PU to the library for the slide. In PBUC, from a few years ago, he might end up there if R2 was safe at 2B. 

[blue23ll]

35 minutes ago, Jimurray said:

I don't know of any mechanics that take the PU to the library for the slide. In PBUC, from a few years ago, he might end up there if R2 was safe at 2B. 

Page 77 of the mechanics book we use here in Washington state. 

[Jimurray]

1 minute ago, blue23ll said:

Page 77 of the mechanics book we use here in Washington state. 

So it's in the book but the locations/chapters you work don't use it.

[catsbackr]

As described, it sounds like you should have been straight lined rather than your partner.  Maybe I'm not visualizing it right though.  But with that being said, if you saw it, call it (which you did).

[Stk004]

18 minutes ago, blue23ll said:

Page 77 of the mechanics book we use here in Washington state. 

As Jimurray eluded to, the MiLB mechanic is for PU to move up the third base line until R1 is retired, then to retreat home. If R1 is safe at 2nd PU continues to move up to the library just like any other first to third rotation. 

Edited July 3, 2017 by Stk004
Jimurray, not Jimmurray

[blue23ll]

On 7/3/2017 at 11:37 AM, Jimurray said:

So it's in the book but the locations/chapters you work don't use it.

Correct.