Texas State Tournament - Balks in winning run

[Jimurray]

22 minutes ago, Gfoley4 said:

the obvious question is, does a similar "wheel" interp exist in FED?

Stepping ahead of the throw is required. "practically impossible to step directly toward first base before the throw to first base," I've seen and called one wheel balk in FED. It requires a good coach to get it right where it will be missed by many.

[ricka56]

28 minutes ago, grayhawk said:

I suppose.  Their version of "wheeling" is to spin on the free foot after stepping to third, with the pivot foot "wheeling" in an arc.  If F1 just spins, he can't gain ground to first base.

I've heard of this. Never have seen one. I think it would take a lot of practice to do this without spraining an ankle. Son, you're going on the 15-day DL and that was a balk...insult to injury.

[VolUmp]

3 hours ago, ricka56 said:

I doubt he misapplied the rule. I think he thought that F1 didn't disengage. So would it be proper umpire etiquette for CC to ask about a misapplied rule as a pretext to ask about his obviously bad judgement? If no, does proper etiquette trump getting this BIG play right ? 

Here's my thought on that … because it's come up so often.  It is actually very difficult to make the 3rd-to-1st move without disengaging.  In the Evans video, the kid who demonstrates the move (legal only in FED) looks ridiculous doing it.  I've tried to demonstrate doing it myself, and I can't do it with any speed or agility. 

SO … I feel that I may presume that the pitcher disengaged if I'm not 100% certain.  And therefore, I would break Umpire etiquette and ask my Calling Official precisely what he saw (given the magnitude of the call).

If he seemed unsure in the least bit, I'd ask him if we may huddle and see if anyone else saw anything different.

If he seemed sure, then I'd live with it, and gladly explain to the Head Coach that we discussed it, and have no info as a crew to call it any differently, and we stand by the call.

Then, there could be no protest heard, since we've whittled it down to the judgment portion of the call, and we would all drink hemlock together after the game.

[BrianC14]

3 hours ago, ricka56 said:

Go to 2:07:40 of the following video, and tell me if anyone can see a game winning balk in there.
http://www.nfhsnetwork.com/events/uil/634d259c45

full size this you tube video:  

 

OK, with that video, I notice first that neither HPU nor U2 echoed the call.  In fact, U2 doesn't even move from HOK.   That move isn't a balk in Fed.   

[Jimurray]

4 minutes ago, BrianC14 said:

OK, with that video, I notice first that neither HPU nor U2 echoed the call.  In fact, U2 doesn't even move from HOK.   That move isn't a balk in Fed.   

After seeing that video I can't see an illegal  wheel move. 

[ricka56]

U3 (for those unaccustomed to 4-man) is the strangest experience. 2-man may be second nature now, but we don't ever work 'D' in 2-man. And even now, I still have to concentrate on WTF I'm supposed to be doing when in 'D' . A few years ago as U3 (Texas HS playoff game), I missed an easy balk call in 'D' (RHP/jab step/no throw). A balk would have ended the series with a R1/R3. I didn't have the balls to call it (neither did my 3 partners). OHC never complained ... must have thought F1 disengaged (which was my BS story, if asked). We got taken off the hook with a series ending RBI single. But every time I'm wondering WTF I'm supposed to be doing in 'D', I remember that no call and am determined not to let it happen again. So, in 'D', I'm looking for the balk that my other three partners (in a pressure packed environment) might miss. Maybe this U3 had a heightened balk sensor that got ahead of itself...I dunno. I do hope that U3 (and his crew) have been able to get some sleep since that game (I would have had trouble).  

[VolUmp]

Texas? Really? Isn't Texas the state where they play baseball about 51 weeks a year? This is like a basketball official blowing a game-changing call in Indiana during the Final Four.

[Jimurray]

6 hours ago, ricka56 said:

I've heard of this. Never have seen one. I think it would take a lot of practice to do this without spraining an ankle. Son, you're going on the 15-day DL and that was a balk...insult to injury.

You might have seen one without knowing it.

[Jimurray]

6 hours ago, VolUmp said:

Here's my thought on that … because it's come up so often.  It is actually very difficult to make the 3rd-to-1st move without disengaging.  In the Evans video, the kid who demonstrates the move (legal only in FED) looks ridiculous doing it.  I've tried to demonstrate doing it myself, and I can't do it with any speed or agility. 

SO … I feel that I may presume that the pitcher disengaged if I'm not 100% certain.  And therefore, I would break Umpire etiquette and ask my Calling Official precisely what he saw (given the magnitude of the call).

If he seemed unsure in the least bit, I'd ask him if we may huddle and see if anyone else saw anything different.

If he seemed sure, then I'd live with it, and gladly explain to the Head Coach that we discussed it, and have no info as a crew to call it any differently, and we stand by the call.

Then, there could be no protest heard, since we've whittled it down to the judgment portion of the call, and we would all drink hemlock together after the game.

Your partner called a WTF (in your mind) balk. He approaches the pitcher explaining something (another WTF) and then continues to the HC at the foul line (WTF) and explains what he called. The HC accepts the explanation and does not request him to discuss the rule with his crew. The HC had an opportunity to get this right. After the discussion I don't see how we can intercede as PU but I am ambivalent as I know the coaches at the state tournament don't behave as they normally do during the regular season and they expect the umps to know what they are doing. 

[VolUmp]

3 minutes ago, Jimurray said:

The HC had an opportunity to get this right. After the discussion I don't see how we can intercede as PU.

Intercede as CC. Here, that's not always the PU. 

I AGREE ... the coach had his chance, but all I can hope is … as stated … the judgment portion of the call was blown.

if I were CC, in this case, I'd intercede. It's just too HUGE of a call to take a chance on getting the rule portion wrong.

[catsbackr]

7 hours ago, VolUmp said:

Intercede as CC. Here, that's not always the PU. 

I AGREE ... the coach had his chance, but all I can hope is … as stated … the judgment portion of the call was blown.

if I were CC, in this case, I'd intercede. It's just too HUGE of a call to take a chance on getting the rule portion wrong.

Vol,

 

As the Crew Chief, you can't intercede unless asked or the discussion with the HC gets prolonged or heated.  You don't even really know what your partner called or what he based the call on.  How can you intercede?

[grayhawk]

Vol,
 
As the Crew Chief, you can't intercede unless asked or the discussion with the HC gets prolonged or heated.  You don't even really know what your partner called or what he based the call on.  How can you intercede?

If you believe a rule was misapplied, then you should speak with the calling umpire (get the whole crew together) even if he doesn't ask for help.

[ricka56]

7 minutes ago, grayhawk said:

If you believe a rule was misapplied, then you should speak with the calling umpire (get the whole crew together) even if he doesn't ask for help.

 

How bad of an umpire etiquette faux pas is it to ask about a possible misapplication of rules as a pretext to ask WTF did you just do and correct if possible ? 

[scrounge]

10 minutes ago, grayhawk said:

 

If you believe a rule was misapplied, then you should speak with the calling umpire (get the whole crew together) even if he doesn't ask for help.

I agree, ESPECIALLY in this situation. Yes, it's out of the ordinary practice, but if you really suspect a rule may be misapplied, sometimes an enlightened self-interest to keep yourself and your crewmates off of the front page of Deadspin or youtube is wise.

[KenBAZ]

I've had the pleasure of listening to Jim Evans walk us through this move as we watched his video. It's one of the few times he talks about an OBR FED difference. What I saw was F1 disengage from the rubber by stepping to 3rd and I don't care what happened next. The only way I'd ever get this wrong is misappling the OBR rule and then being unwilling to admit it. Maybe I'd want my crew chief to come to me on this to give me a way out.

Sent from my SM-G935T using Tapatalk

[grayhawk]

How bad of an umpire etiquette faux pas is it to ask about a possible misapplication of rules as a pretext to ask WTF did you just do and correct if possible ? 

When it's a crew saver, don't worry about it being a faux pas. One of our association's top umpires was working the plate in a state final this year. U2 flat out missed an easy FPSR and PU came out big and made the call. OC was not happy, but PU was able to keep him in the game. The state representatives told PU after the game that he did the right thing by making that call. Crew saver.

[GreyhoundAggie]

I agree. I don't have a balk here at all in FED. Not sure what that umpire saw or was calling. Unfortunate time to call that in a big game.

[ElkOil]

1 hour ago, grayhawk said:

 

When it's a crew saver, don't worry about it being a faux pas. One of our association's top umpires was working the plate in a state final this year. U2 flat out missed an easy FPSR and PU came out big and made the call. OC was not happy, but PU was able to keep him in the game. The state representatives told PU after the game that he did the right thing by making that call. Crew saver.

 

Sure 'nuff. This goes hand-in-hand with the missed rotation @Gil posted the other day. We need to have each other's backs on the field. That's team work.

[lawump]

2 hours ago, grayhawk said:

When it's a crew saver, don't worry about it being a faux pas. 

 

Absolutely.  

In SC we play a best-of-three championship series.  This year, I was CC and PU in Game 3.  In the bottom of the first inning we had an R2 get in a rundown between second and third base.  The rundown ended near third base with R2 getting tagged, falling to the ground, and then getting up and aggressively pushing the defensive player who had just tagged him. I came running up the line very quickly...at first just to make sure that a fight did not break out.  Before I could get there, the third-base coach/head coach had already grabbed his runner by the shirt and aggressively walked him to their third base dugout.

My third base umpire was working his first state championship.  He is a real good young umpire, but was nervous (as you can imagine).  He had not ejected R2.  I felt that unless he had seen something that I had missed, that R2 had to be ejected.  I looked at U3 and said, "I saw a clean tag, and then the runner got up and aggressively pushed the runner."  My partner replied, "I have the same thing."  I said, "okay, R2 has to be ejected."  My partner said, "I agree."  I went over to the head coach, gave a small ejection mechanic, and told the head coach, "your runner is done for the day." The head coach said, "I agree with that.  He'll stay in the dugout the rest of the day."

When I began to return to the plate area the other team's head coach was standing outside his dugout yelling, "he's got to be ejected!"  I said, "coach, I've already ejected him.  He's done." The defensive head coach said, "Oh. Okay," and he went back to his dugout.

The point of all of this is to say, if R2 did not get ejected things could have gotten out of hand very quickly.  The offensive coach knew his player had to be ejected, and the defensive head coach was ready to go nuts if we didn't eject him.  With a month having passed since this game was played and now being able to replay it in my mind, I realize that this was the make-or-break moment for us as a crew.  We were either go to assert our authority and settle the game down and control it...or the game was going to devolve into a rage of uncontrolled testosterone with each team trying to push the boundaries of what they could get away with in an attempt to win a state championship.

By enacting a "crew saver" as the crew chief, I got both teams calmed down (the offensive team learned that there would be consequences for their actions, and the defensive team felt that justice had been property served), and, in fact, the entire stadium calmed down (we were in a minor league stadium with a large crowd).  In fact, we didn't have any other issues the entire game.  In fact, we finished the game in less than 1:30. :-)

(BTW, this stuff gets noticed.  Two weeks after this game, I was buying lunch in a sandwich shop when a coach of a high-school aged summer "travel ball" team came up to me.  He was at this state championship game.  He came up to tell me that we had done a "real nice job" of ejecting the player and keeping control of the game.)

[blue32]

I see nothing wrong in that move. Could it be the U3 got way too quick and called it for a no stop, since he was picking up his foot while the glove was still moving? Then when the pitcher stepped towards third, he had an "oh crap, i just screwed up big time" moment? His body language suggested he was really trying hard to explain whatever reason he had. I mean, who goes that quickly to the pitcher after balking him?  I wonder if he tried to explain it away by saying he broke the plane of the rubber with his free foot. I wish there were a camera angle that catches exactly when U3 calls it, that might explain more. Just throwing that out there.

[BrianC14]

37 minutes ago, blue32 said:

I see nothing wrong in that move. Could it be the U3 got way too quick and called it for a no stop, since he was picking up his foot while the glove was still moving? Then when the pitcher stepped towards third, he had an "oh crap, i just screwed up big time" moment? His body language suggested he was really trying hard to explain whatever reason he had. I mean, who goes that quickly to the pitcher after balking him?  I wonder if he tried to explain it away by saying he broke the plane of the rubber with his free foot. I wish there were a camera angle that catches exactly when U3 calls it, that might explain more. Just throwing that out there.

I think that's a stretch (no pun intended).   And the foot beyond the back plane?   Even more of a stretch.   

[Replacematt]

11 minutes ago, BrianC14 said:

I think that's a stretch (no pun intended).   And the foot beyond the back plane?   Even more of a stretch.   

I don't. That was the first thing I thought of in the vid.

[grayhawk]

I see nothing wrong in that move. Could it be the U3 got way too quick and called it for a no stop, since he was picking up his foot while the glove was still moving? Then when the pitcher stepped towards third, he had an "oh crap, i just screwed up big time" moment? His body language suggested he was really trying hard to explain whatever reason he had. I mean, who goes that quickly to the pitcher after balking him?  I wonder if he tried to explain it away by saying he broke the plane of the rubber with his free foot. I wish there were a camera angle that catches exactly when U3 calls it, that might explain more. Just throwing that out there.

The wide angle shows when he called it and he didn't point until after F1 feinted to first.

[BrianC14]

39 minutes ago, Matt said:

I don't. That was the first thing I thought of in the vid.

The glove may be 'moving', but it's in his set / stopped location.   Let's realize this is all supposition, because we don't know why he called a balk.  However, there's no way I'd call that balk for 'no stop', simply because his glove was moving...a bit of adjustment of the ball, maybe, but that's not a balk.   And again, HPU and U2 would easily be able to see that and call it, but they didn't even flinch

[Replacematt]

18 minutes ago, BrianC14 said:

The glove may be 'moving', but it's in his set / stopped location.   Let's realize this is all supposition, because we don't know why he called a balk.  However, there's no way I'd call that balk for 'no stop', simply because his glove was moving...a bit of adjustment of the ball, maybe, but that's not a balk.   And again, HPU and U2 would easily be able to see that and call it, but they didn't even flinch

I think you're misunderstanding what we're saying.