Clarification Since No One Knew

[alsparl]

Scenario:  12U boys league, IESA rules, batter count 3 balls 1 strike

Batter swings at pitch making slight contact to ball with bat, ball goes directly into catcher's glove without touching ground.  HP umpire calls batter out on 2nd strike based on" foul tip was caught."   Base umpire has no idea what the rule is.  Both opposing coaches from both teams converse with HP umpire and believe it ought to be strike 2 on foul tip as only caught foul tip with a 2-strike count would result in strike 3.  HP umpire has final call and sticks to his original decision, batter out.  Both opposing coaches respect the decision and even converse about call after the game; nice to see cooler heads prevailed.  More confusion than anything.

This question is being asked for "the next time;"  Was the batter correctly called "out" or should it have been "strike 2?"

Thank you for your time.

Aaron

[Mister B]

Foul tip by definition is a live ball strike. So with 1 strike on the batter, it would now be strike 2. 

I don't know if IESA alters any of that, but I wouldn't imagine it would. 

[Stan W.]

sadly No.......foul tip resulted in only Strike 2.......... 

[beerguy55]

What scares me is how often this umpire would have made this decision before and after this game.

Even at that age/skill level it's reasonable to expect to see that at least once a game...and not uncommon to see a foul tip on strike one or two half a dozen times a game between both teams.

 

Also - by rule and definition ALL foul tips are caught.  If it's not caught it's not a foul tip.

[KenBAZ]

I'm pleased with how you describe the coaches handling this. I am dismayed as a baseball guy. A 10 year old baseball player should understand what a foul tip is and isn't. Has our baseball literacy gotten so low that umpires don't understand how to rule on this?

Sent from my SM-G935T using Tapatalk

[alsparl]

Thank you all for your responses, we really do appreciate it.  I am actually gonna print this email trail off and keep it in our score book "for the next time" as a reference.  But again, we all certainly know the HP umpire has the final say.

[beerguy55]

14 minutes ago, alsparl said:

Thank you all for your responses, we really do appreciate it.  I am actually gonna print this email trail off and keep it in our score book "for the next time" as a reference.  But again, we all certainly know the HP umpire has the final say.

Well, if you're going to print anything - this is from Official Baseball Rules.

 

A FOUL TIP is a batted ball that goes sharp and direct from the bat to the catcher’s hands and is legally caught. It is not a foul tip unless caught and any foul tip that is caught is a strike, and the ball is in play. It is not a catch if it is a rebound, unless the ball has first touched the catcher’s glove or hand

 

In short, it's a strike, not an out (unless strike three), and the runners are not required to tag up (the implication in that umpires ruling is a base runner could have been appealed on a tag up play).  As well, the ball is live, so on a foul tip a runner stealing a base can continue to advance, and he can be safe, or thrown out.

[LRZ]

You might want to bring this misconception to the attention of the UIC or LD for educational/training purposes.

[Rich Ives]

1 hour ago, alsparl said:

Thank you all for your responses, we really do appreciate it.  I am actually gonna print this email trail off and keep it in our score book "for the next time" as a reference.  But again, we all certainly know the HP umpire has the final say.

Do a formal protest if he does this again. It is a rule misinterpretation.

[beerguy55]

21 minutes ago, Rich Ives said:

Do a formal protest if he does this again. It is a rule misinterpretation.

This also formalizes the education/training of the umpire in question once the protest is heard, and granted.  The feedback and verification that he got the rule wrong would be immediate and documented.

1 hour ago, alsparl said:

Thank you all for your responses, we really do appreciate it.  I am actually gonna print this email trail off and keep it in our score book "for the next time" as a reference.  But again, we all certainly know the HP umpire has the final say.

Be careful about bringing printed rules onto the field - a lot of leagues frown on it.  Ask the ump if you can show him the rule - if not, simply tell him you're playing the game under protest, and deal with it later, formally.

[alsparl]

I appreciate the expertise you all have provided in this scenario; it has not gone over my head.  Please know the information, suggestions, and instruction has been taken and will be administered properly.  This issue did not cause a child not to get a MLB contract or college scholarship so I am rather confident its water under the bridge for all of us by now.  But, I am very thankful to have a place to come to present such a question and have excellent feedback provided supported by years of experience.  Again, thank you all for your time and consideration as it has been a learning experience and also appreciated.  Be safe.

[MadMax]

On 6/6/2017 at 2:43 PM, alsparl said:

Scenario:  12U boys league, IESA rules, batter count 3 balls 1 strike

Batter swings at pitch making slight contact to ball with bat, ball goes directly into catcher's glove without touching ground.  HP umpire calls batter out on 2nd strike based on" foul tip was caught."   Base umpire has no idea what the rule is.  Both opposing coaches from both teams converse with HP umpire and believe it ought to be strike 2 on foul tip as only caught foul tip with a 2-strike count would result in strike 3.  HP umpire has final call and sticks to his original decision, batter out.  Both opposing coaches respect the decision and even converse about call after the game; nice to see cooler heads prevailed.  More confusion than anything.

This question is being asked for "the next time;"  Was the batter correctly called "out" or should it have been "strike 2?"

Thank you for your time.

Aaron

Provided you don't have that same guy as your plate umpire again, there shouldn't be a next time. The definitions of a Strike, a Foul Tip, and a Foul Ball are core, foundational, fundamental rules within The Rules of Baseball, regardless of which particular codes. Clearly, this guy doesn't know baseball, and is resistant to even baseball common sense.

What I'm more concerned about is that his BU partner wasn't confident enough in his Rules knowledge, or forward enough to overcome the PU's blatant ineptitude. It's understandable if PU got his count wrong, and had it as 3-2; but, to call a Batter out on a 2nd strike solely because it was a Foul Tip? Whiskey Tango Foxtrot?? He must not know the particular differences between a Foul ball and a Foul Tip. The sad part is, now two umpires have this wrong, and it'll spread like a virus.

Had BU had a bit more confidence, I would have encouraged him – nay, expected him – to step in and correct his PU's misapplication of the Rules. This isn't a judgement issue, it's a knowledge / ignorance issue.

I'm about to sound a bit draconian, and I do acknowledge the context of it being a 12U league baseball game, but this is a completely reasonable grounds for Protest. If there is an umpire being this much of a maverick and this obtuse, this needs to be brought to the LD and/or UD/UIC of that umpire's association. If left  uncorrected, it will, as I said, spread like a virus not only to umpires, but to coaches and players.

[ScubaUmp]

Hey, you gotta respect these guys sticking to their guns. Luckily they didn't burn down the house.

 

One can only hope the crew looked it up themselves in there post game.

 

Was that a dream????

 

Where are you getting your umpires? Talk to the association assigner, if these guys are volunteers from your league, the league should have a clinic.