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stl_ump

I know, foul ball but...

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A fellow umpire and I were chatting and throwing out various scenarios and here's one we came up with that I couldn't figure out the "why" part of the answer.

Foul ball goes off the catchers knee / mask / some part of him and goes up in the air and it comes back down and it is caught.  Doesn't matter, because as soon as it hits him in foul territory it is a foul ball.

Next we have a ball hit down the first base line, in foul territory, that is deflected up in the air by F3, who is also in foul territory, and it comes back down and he catches it.  We have an out.

Both situations are the same, ball is touched in foul territory by players in foul territory but one is an out and one is a foul ball.

Why? :blink:

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But that's my point... neither of these applies as to why one is a catch and one is a foul ball.

The situations are identical.  The ball is deflected and then caught.  It's in foul territory when deflected.  And both players are in foul territory when the deflection occurs.

 

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39 minutes ago, stl_ump said:

But that's my point... neither of these applies as to why one is a catch and one is a foul ball.

The situations are identical.  The ball is deflected and then caught.  It's in foul territory when deflected.  And both players are in foul territory when the deflection occurs.

 

IMHO, They are not identical, one is a "fly" ball the other is directly back at F2. 

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28 minutes ago, stl_ump said:

But that's my point... neither of these applies as to why one is a catch and one is a foul ball.

The situations are identical.  The ball is deflected and then caught.  It's in foul territory when deflected.  And both players are in foul territory when the deflection occurs.

 

Yes it does. Your answer is in the definition of a foul tip:

A FOUL TIP is a batted ball that goes sharp and direct from the bat to the catcher’s hands and is legally caught. It is not a foul tip unless caught and any foul tip that is caught is a strike, and the ball is in play. It is not a catch if it is a rebound, UNLESS the ball has first touched the catcher’s glove or hand.

Understand that the limitation to the exception is F2's glove or hand. In your OP, you stated "Foul ball goes off the catchers knee / mask / some part of him and goes up in the air and it comes back down and it is caught.  Doesn't matter, because as soon as it hits him in foul territory it is a foul ball."

Your first statement is incorrect since not ALL parts of the catcher are valid for the condition to be true, and your last statement isn't complete. Yes, the ball is foul, but it isn't necessarily dead.

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A foul tip is treated as a pitch: even though caught, it does not result in an out, it results in a strike. We don't want to make it too easy to retire the batter! A foul ball is also treated as a strike unless strike 3 or caught in flight.

A batted ball that satisfies the definition of a fly ball, fair or foul, may be caught by any fielder for an out, including one that deflects off a fielder (because it's still "in flight" by rule). That's true whether the fielder is F2 or F3.

Does that help?

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But wait guys... I'm not talking about a foul tip. 

Let just say for the sake of consistency the balls goes off the catchers head / mask and goes up in the air and he catches it as it comes back down.

Line drive (not a pop up) goes down the 1st base line and F3 misplays it and it goes off his head (in foul territory) up in the air and he catches it.

 

And STKJOCK... why does it matter if it goes directly back to F2 and off his head or directly down the first base line and directly off the head of F3?

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8 minutes ago, maven said:

A foul tip is treated as a pitch: even though caught, it does not result in an out, it results in a strike. We don't want to make it too easy to retire the batter! A foul ball is also treated as a strike unless strike 3 or caught in flight.

A batted ball that satisfies the definition of a fly ball, fair or foul, may be caught by any fielder for an out, including one that deflects off a fielder (because it's still "in flight" by rule). That's true whether the fielder is F2 or F3.

Does that help?

So are you saying a ball fouled back to the catcher and off his head was NOT a ball  "in flight"? 

A line drive isn't considered a fly ball (by definition) and it seems to me the definition of a Line Drive meets the criteria whether it goes back to the catcher or down the line to F3. 

A LINE DRIVE is a batted ball that goes sharp and direct from the bat to a fielder without touching the ground

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1 minute ago, stl_ump said:

But wait guys... I'm not talking about a foul tip. 

Let just say for the sake of consistency the balls goes off the catchers head / mask and goes up in the air and he catches it as it comes back down.

Line drive (not a pop up) goes down the 1st base line and F3 misplays it and it goes off his head (in foul territory) up in the air and he catches it.

 

And STKJOCK... why does it matter if it goes directly back to F2 and off his head or directly down the first base line and directly off the head of F3?

How else would a ball off the bat hit the catcher unless it goes directly back at him, by rule if caught it's a foul tip strike.

 

if it's a pop up that he doesn't see and stands up and is still until,it falls from the sky and hits his head?

 

thats why it matters and that's why I see it as different.  

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1 minute ago, stl_ump said:

So are you saying a ball fouled back to the catcher and off his head was NOT a ball  "in flight"?

It is. But by rule it cannot be caught for an out (it's an exception, again, so as not to make retiring the batter too easy).

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A ball that goes sharp and directly back to F2 is not a ball in flight. It's a foul tip if caught and a foul ball if not. It's status is never a batted ball in flight.

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1 minute ago, Richvee said:

A ball that goes sharp and directly back to F2 is not a ball in flight. It's a foul tip if caught and a foul ball if not. It's status is never a batted ball in flight.

See definition of a line drive. Why doesn't this apply to the catcher?

A LINE DRIVE is a batted ball that goes sharp and direct from the bat to a fielder without touching the ground.

And just for the record, I agree that it is a foul ball but trying to see if there is a way differentiate it based on what's in the book.

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6 minutes ago, maven said:

It is. But by rule it cannot be caught for an out (it's an exception, again, so as not to make retiring the batter too easy).

I agree it's exception but it's not stated anywhere that it Is an exception.

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10 minutes ago, stl_ump said:

See definition of a line drive. Why doesn't this apply to the catcher?

A LINE DRIVE is a batted ball that goes sharp and direct from the bat to a fielder without touching the ground.

And just for the record, I agree that it is a foul ball but trying to see if there is a way differentiate it based on what's in the book.

My answer is the ball that goes sharp and direct BACKWARDS is not a batted ball. That's why it can only be caught for a strike, and not an out.

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31 minutes ago, stl_ump said:

See definition of a line drive. Why doesn't this apply to the catcher?

Because that's the way they wrote the rules. Wondering why rules are the way they are may be more frustrating than it's worth, even though there may be sound reasoning and rationalizations in the minds of the authors.

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1 hour ago, stl_ump said:

But that's my point... neither of these applies as to why one is a catch and one is a foul ball.

The situations are identical.  The ball is deflected and then caught.  It's in foul territory when deflected.  And both players are in foul territory when the deflection occurs.

 

One is a foul tip. One isn't.   Such is life.

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1 hour ago, stl_ump said:

But wait guys... I'm not talking about a foul tip. 

Let just say for the sake of consistency the balls goes off the catchers head / mask and goes up in the air and he catches it as it comes back down.

Line drive (not a pop up) goes down the 1st base line and F3 misplays it and it goes off his head (in foul territory) up in the air and he catches it.

 

And STKJOCK... why does it matter if it goes directly back to F2 and off his head or directly down the first base line and directly off the head of F3?

Read the definition of foul tip. It says it is not a catch if it is rebound. If it's not a catch is can't be an out.

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9 hours ago, Rich Ives said:

One is a foul tip. One isn't.   Such is life.

Just an FYI but as stated I'm NOT talking about a foul tip scenario.

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Because the rules makers decided this was the proper balance between offense and defense (with giving slightly more weight to the offense).

 

Here's what Evans has to say (but it doesn't really address the OP):

The rules of 1896 defined a foul tip as a foul ball that does not rise above the batsman's head and is caught by
the catcher within ten feet of home plate.
The basis of the rule as it is enforced today appeared in the 1897 revision and defined a foul tip as a batted ball
that goes "...foul sharp from the bat to the catcher's hands."
In 1904, the rules described a foul tip as a batted ball that goes sharp and direct to the catcher's hands. It is
interesting to note that the catcher's glove is not mentioned as many receivers of that era were not using them. The
1950 revision explained that it was not considered a foul tip if the ball rebounded off any of the catcher's equipment
and was then secured. If it hit his glove or hand first, rebounded, and was subsequently secured, it was considered
a legal catch and a foul tip rather than a foul ball.

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That's a good start at least...

**But how about the definition of a line drive?  That also says "sharp and direct"  So by definition this could be down the 1st base line or back towards the catcher. 

 

** :stir

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32 minutes ago, stl_ump said:

That's a good start at least...

**But how about the definition of a line drive?  That also says "sharp and direct"  So by definition this could be down the 1st base line or back towards the catcher. 

 

** :stir

By using the "stirring the pot" emoticon, it appears you are asking just to be a contrarian. Everyone has already given you the answer you seek.

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1 minute ago, ElkOil said:

By using the "stirring the pot" emoticon, it appears you are asking just to be a contrarian. Everyone has already given you the answer you seek.

Oh no... sorry if it came across like that.  

What I'm seeking is a definitive answer as to why is one an out and the other a foul ball.   By the eye test we all can see the difference between the two but I was just curious if there was a way to prove, by the book, that they are different.

If you were going to explain to someone who had never seen baseball and they were to ask the same question.  We couldn't point out in the book that it says this type of batted ball is an out but this type of batted ball is a foul ball.

 

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1 hour ago, stl_ump said:

Just an FYI but as stated I'm NOT talking about a foul tip scenario.

as you describe in the OP, you're in fact laying out a scenario that could be a foul tip, the difference being in the OP, the ball hits the mask first instead of the glove.  Based on what I understand, if the ball hit the glove then the mask and then caught, it would be called an out. (I'm sure @maven or @ElkOilor  @noumpere - can clarify/correct that)

 

 

19 minutes ago, stl_ump said:

Oh no... sorry if it came across like that.  

What I'm seeking is a definitive answer as to why is one an out and the other a foul ball.   By the eye test we all can see the difference between the two but I was just curious if there was a way to prove, by the book, that they are different.

 

IMO, the answer is simple, because the rule books defines and states such, why one is a foul ball and the other a foul ball caught for an out.

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15 minutes ago, stkjock said:

IMO, the answer is simple, because the rule books defines and states such, why one is a foul ball and the other a foul ball caught for an out.

But it doesn't.

It talks about a "rebound" in the case of a foul tip.  It talks about what a line drive is - sharp and direct - which we have here. It talks about a fly ball which we don't have here. 

If you had never seen baseball or knew nothing of it and I said "the batter swings and the ball is hit sharp and direct in foul territory and it bounces off a player but is then caught it is an out. .. Except if it's the catcher"  How could you explain this exception, by the book, why it's a foul ball?  Remember, your answer has to come from the book.  Or the MLBUM.

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Forest for the trees man.  I'm not versed enough in the rule book to continue this debate, so I will bow out at this point, good luck in your quest for a acceptable answer. 

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