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Want some opinions on this one


Thawk

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So I had a situation yesterday I would like some opinions on.  Let me lay out the situation for you.

PONY Mustang(9-10yr old) end of season playoff game.  R1 on 3B, R2 on 2B.  Honestly don't remember how the play went down, but here was where I went into my quandary.  R1 comes home, but doesn't touch the plate.  Before R1 comes back to touch the plate, R2 comes home, and DOES touch the plate.  So I know that if the other team saw that R1 missed the plate, I've got an out.  Sure as shooting, the coach comes out, but he says he's protesting that R1 missed the plate.  I called time, and when to confer with my partner to ensure I had an out.  He agreed with me.  When I came back to the  coach I told him that he needed to perform an appeal play.  SO after the coach explained everything step by step to his players, I call R1 out.  IMMEDIATELY the 3B coach comes over and starts arguing that I should have not advised the coach on what he should have done.

My quandary is this; Should have I said anything to the coach?

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Your response is, "Are you protesting or appealing?"

If "protest".- "Sorry. missed bases are not protestable"

If "appeal"-, "OK, go ahead"..

See? You're not advising anything.......

 

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It is odd that a coach who knows how to "explain everything step by step to his players" doesn't know the difference between a protest and an appeal, and I'm not sure I would highlight the distinction by asking if he wanted to protest or appeal. Don't coach the coaches. I would probably have replied: "What are you protesting?" "The runner missed the plate." "OK, that's not protestable. Let's play ball."

Incidentally, as the PU, I would not have gone to the BU, who is presumably much further away and watching other things. You saw it, it's your call. 

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I know this may irk some who read this, but why is it so wrong, at this level of baseball, to make sure that a coach knows what it is that he wants to do? 

 

4 hours ago, jjb said:

Your response is, "Are you protesting or appealing?"

If "protest".- "Sorry. missed bases are not protestable"

If "appeal"-, "OK, go ahead"..

See? You're not advising anything.......

 

 

3 hours ago, LRZ said:

It is odd that a coach who knows how to "explain everything step by step to his players" doesn't know the difference between a protest and an appeal, and I'm not sure I would highlight the distinction by asking if he wanted to protest or appeal. Don't coach the coaches. I would probably have replied: "What are you protesting?" "The runner missed the plate." "OK, that's not protestable. Let's play ball."

Incidentally, as the PU, I would not have gone to the BU, who is presumably much further away and watching other things. You saw it, it's your call. 

These would give me the impression that the umpire is umpiring by the book rather than with the book.

Most of the coaches at this level are as raw as the players and ought to be given many of the same considerations we might give their players. For example, do we balk a pitcher for twitching or having a slight movement of their shoulder when pitching from the set position?

For the uninitiated, the terminology of protest vs. appeal is unimportant. Rather, the intent is the heart of the issue. Had this been at a level where coaches are more well versed in the some of the less common procedures of baseball, less consideration would be warranted.

As @ALStripes17 said, it's 9-10 ball.

My .02. YMMV. 

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The kids are 9-10, but the coach is an adult; let's not conflate the two. Let's also distinguish between the physical capabilities of the kids and the presumed knowledge of the coaches. Whether or not we assume knowledge on the coach's part, we've disadvantaged the other side. We cut kids on both side slack, for example, when pitching, so we are not putting one side at a disadvantage.

By the way, I'm not irked, I just disagree. Disagreements about game management issues are fine, in my book.

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What is the A-Number-1 thing for the umpire to know during a baseball game? The status and whereabouts of the baseball. So, provided that you did it in quiet tone of voice between you and DTHC, then you could easily tell OT3BC (probably OTHC, eh?) that all you did is explain that any appeal has to be Live, and the current status of the ball is Dead.

Now, it's important to know your Rulesets – OBR and NCAA have to be Live ball appeals. Fed, by contrast, can be Dead ball appeals, conducted completely by voice, no actual activity necessary. Granted, coaches (or players) have to be clear and articulate in what they are appealing, but even during a Live ball moment, like on a potential tag-up and score, the DT merely has to ask at the completion of the play, "Umpire, did the runner on third leave early? We think he left early.", and then you the umpire judge/rule accordingly.

I've worked with you before, @Thawk751, and I see no problem with you consulting with your partner regarding Rules particulars. An umpire doesn't want to misapply or misinterpret a Rule, when there is an opportunity to get it right by just having a validation from one's partner and fellow umpire. You fail as a team; why not succeed as a team? I can tell you, if you have an evaluator present, and one of you misapplies a Rule, you're both getting docked. The days of the "I ride alone", autonomous, powermongering umpire should be put out to pasture and left there, guys.

Lastly, as @ALStripes17 points out, one needs to consider the context – this a 10U ballgame. I'm surprised that the kids know how to hold a bat correctly, let alone make an appeal. You know how many times coaches ask about obstruction / interference and use the incorrect, opposite word? Better yet, they declare it, during Live ball play! "That's Interference!", they'll thunder, pointing from their 3BC box at their own R1 rounding 2B! 

You just ran into a case of a coach feeling smarmy and full of himself for knowing more than his counterpart, and feeling jipped because he feels you aided his counterpart's cause. I can't help but recall the John Grisham novel and movie The Rainmaker, where law school student Rudy Baylor takes on big insurance company lawyers, and the judge (played by Danny Glover) coaches Rudy through proper proceedings during the trial.

Understand the context.

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Max makes an interesting point about something I may have misconstrued. Thawk751, when you conferred with your partner to ensure you had an out, what did you mean? Did you consult him about the rule or about your judgment that the runner missed the plate (which is what it sounded like to me); I agree that the former is appropriate, but the latter? 

But let's not rewrite the facts and alter the circumstances: the OP did not simply tell the coach an appeal had to be made during a live ball; he told the coach he needed to perform an appeal play, which sounds to me like, "It's not a protest, it's an appeal." And to say that it was done quietly, between coach and umpire, is to ignore the fact that the opposing coach heard this exchange, because he came out and objected to the OP's giving advice to the other team.

And, again, I'm looking at what the coaches say and do, not at the kids. But maybe we are disagreeing about something similar to the arguments in the forum about where to draw the line between preventive officiating and coaching. Matters of opinion.

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6 hours ago, LRZ said:

It is odd that a coach who knows how to "explain everything step by step to his players" doesn't know the difference between a protest and an appeal, and I'm not sure I would highlight the distinction by asking if he wanted to protest or appeal. Don't coach the coaches. I would probably have replied: "What are you protesting?" "The runner missed the plate." "OK, that's not protestable. Let's play ball."

Incidentally, as the PU, I would not have gone to the BU, who is presumably much further away and watching other things. You saw it, it's your call. 

@LRZI consulted with my partner confirm my understanding of the rule only

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4 hours ago, Gfoley4 said:

Related, once R2 touches after R1 already missed, R1 can't correct his mistake, correct?

He can go back and touch the plate, but it has no effect on the upcoming appeal (unless it convinces the defense not to appeal).

On the OP, when the coach comes out and says something like, "R1 missed the plate." I would say, "you need to make an appeal for me to answer that."  That's not instructing -- you don't' tell him F1 gets on the rubber, I put the ball in play (because it was dead), ...

 

When the other coach complains, just say, 'He asked a question, and I answered it as I am supposed to."  Then, get back to the game.

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I once had the bases on a 13U CYO game and the coach wanted to appeal that R2 missed 3rd.

I told him to make an appeal.

He then said that he did not know how to do that so I told him to wait until the PU made the ball live and have his pitcher throw to 3rd.

He did and I called the runner safe.

The coach stared at me dumbfounded and said. "After all that you call him safe?"

I replied yes but to look at the bright side--you now know how to make an appeal.

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It may not apply in this situation, but don't rule out anyone with English as a second language.   In Canada it's very common to see Quebec-based coaches mix up some terminology - and something like protest/appeal could very easily be interchangeable in translation.    They're not quite interchangeable in English, but it's close.  Coming from another language, they could be.

We've even seen it on these boards with words like "force" - there's a rule book meaning of force, and there's a dictionary meaning of force.   Sometimes you need to say "I know what you meant".   

I see nothing wrong with "you can't protest a missed base...do you mean appeal?"   "Yes"  "OK, go ahead"  (unless PONY allows verbal appeals)

 

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On ‎6‎/‎4‎/‎2017 at 8:11 PM, VolUmp said:

I protest and appeal Thawk751's use of the damned FED runner designations.

Even those of us who work FED games refuse to use them.

Sorry, can't protest that ;)

 

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I think explaining how to appeal, prior to the appeal, could be construed as giving one team an advantage. If a coach needs a lesson on how to appeal, I'll be glad to help between innings or after the game. 

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4 hours ago, Mister B said:

I think explaining how to appeal, prior to the appeal, could be construed as giving one team an advantage. If a coach needs a lesson on how to appeal, I'll be glad to help between innings or after the game. 

In real baseball , such as travel or tournament,I agree.

In  recreational everyone is learning and I have yet to hear a complaint.

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  • 2 weeks later...

This is one of the main reasons I like the Fed dead ball verbal appeal. What did all the useless Kabuki theater and pedantic arguing of semantics actually accomplish? Nothing but creating a situation where it didn't need to exist. All this sound and fury, signifying nothing.

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23 minutes ago, scrounge said:

This is one of the main reasons I like the Fed dead ball verbal appeal. What did all the useless Kabuki theater and pedantic arguing of semantics actually accomplish? Nothing but creating a situation where it didn't need to exist. All this sound and fury, signifying nothing.

But do you tell the unknowing actors in the Kabuki theater that they don't have to do it that way?

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