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hit by pitch not ruled in maryland-purdue

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It looks to me like he pulled his head away but dipped his elbow at the same time.

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I"ve got HBP.

I get that NCAA is training guys to push back against easy awards on HBP, but I think the pendulum has swung too far here.

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Ive got HBP. No way I could reasonably say/justify that the batter intentionally got hit with that pitch.

And I am known in my area for bringing hitters back to the plate and/or getting dead ball strikes.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

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This being the only play of the game I've seen there seems to be some axe to grind that we're missing. No way am I keeping him at the plate on that play.

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1 hour ago, taa71458 said:

This being the only play of the game I've seen there seems to be some axe to grind that we're missing.

By and large, NCAA wants guys working by the book. It isn't pro ball, where grudges, personal history, and unwritten rules are often as important to managing a game as the rules. So, we shouldn't care about any possible ax grinding.

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While I haven't the experience to judge another brother's call, I'll say that when I'm judging such calls in my own games, the pitch is a huge part of it, and that pitch was waaaaayyyy too poor to keep the Batter. Too high and too tight, and the batter didn't have much of an opportunity to do much more than he did. 

But again, as in everything we do, timing is everything, and these calls require premium timing from the PU. A tad slower, he maybe makes no call except, 'HBP'. 

I say this hesitantly knowing I could easily make a similar call, errant or not. 

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On the EJ, I need to learn and grow in regard to acceptances and tolerance levels in college baseball, so I'm asking objectively... How many vulgarities must a coach scream demonstratively at an umpire before getting the hook? I was previously operating under the premise that if a coach f-bombs me loud enough for others to hear, he's done. Maybe I'm off the mark? I applaud this PU's patience and professionalism, and I'm wondering how many share a similar level. 

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28 minutes ago, kstrunk said:

On the EJ, I need to learn and grow in regard to acceptances and tolerance levels in college baseball, so I'm asking objectively... How many vulgarities must a coach scream demonstratively at an umpire before getting the hook? I was previously operating under the premise that if a coach f-bombs me loud enough for others to hear, he's done. Maybe I'm off the mark? I applaud this PU's patience and professionalism, and I'm wondering how many share a similar level. 

That all depends on the level.  The "magic word" contains not four letters, but three -- "you"

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1 minute ago, noumpere said:

The "magic word" contains not four letters, but three -- "you"

Thanks... and I agree with the 3 P's, but I'm also wondering if aggression, posture, and tone matter. This particular offender was aggressive, loud, and demonstrative out of the duggout, so I'm asking if we take that into consideration in college baseball. Also, how much do others take the venue and situation into consideration? Big 10 Tournament, big spot, and perhaps the extra leeway was result of PU not liking his own call? But all those things aside, putting myself in that situation, when I see and hear the HC coming at me like that, I'm probably thinking 'he's got about 5 seconds to calm down'. 

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4 hours ago, Kevin_K said:

It looks to me like he pulled his head away but dipped his elbow at the same time.

I was thinking that as well, but after watching it a few times, that also seems like a natural movement .... the head pulls back but the arm(s) may SEEM to move in the opposite direction.  In reality, I think it's an equal measure of the arms sort of being left behind.  I don't know too many players (or any, really) that could react that quickly and still have the mental process to decide to intentionally stick an unprotected elbow out in that short time span.

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2 hours ago, kstrunk said:

While I haven't the experience to judge another brother's call,

I know that some around here are reluctant to "judge," and I get why. But for me, this reluctance is "old school" and about something other than officiating. I can respect an official's competence, skill, and achievement, and still say (based on video) that he missed a call — hell, even he might watch it and say the same thing.

Replay gives us a different angle and time to think and discuss, so it's not really a tool for "judging" an official (in any sport). If we watch video and think that a judgment call is missed, the question becomes: what could we have done differently in the same spot to get it right?

That could involve mechanics: if we did something mechanically wrong, we can fix that and be in a better position next time to do it right.

Or the mechanics might be great, and it was a timing issue. Also fixable.

Or, we might have just made a bad call. And video is useful here too: the human brain is a pattern recognition engine, and it gets better the more patterns are uploaded. That's why we rely so heavily on "experience" to move up: we need to have seen a lot of different plays, including goofy ones, so we know how to rule when we see it again.

When we watch a lot of training tapes, we benefit from the experience of other officials, including many who are better than we are. We can see what their judgment was and why they were right (as they usually are) or wrong (as everyone sometimes is). The goal is not self-aggrandizement, but self-improvement, and the guy who made the call usually aims for that as much as we do.

"You can't judge me, you weren't there" is over. I'm not judging him, I'm trying to learn from his call (which in this thread, I think, was wrong).

Here endeth the lesson. :)

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3 hours ago, kstrunk said:

While I haven't the experience to judge another brother's call...

Of course you do. Even if you're not an umpire and simply spectate baseball, you can question and judge calls. It's normal and should be done so we can learn from what others do, both good and bad. Umpires miss calls. We make mistakes on rules applications and interpretations. We're in positions on the field that cause us to not see some plays the way could otherwise see them.

If I can extrapolate from your use of the word "brother," it seems more like a hesitation to opine based on a fraternal connection you have with other umpires. Embrace reviewing calls. Heck, we do video reviews at our association meetings. This isn't to ridicule, but there are few better tools at our disposal than video to learn from others. There were two umpires in our association who both botched a call real, real bad... and it was captured on video. They got a copy of it and had the shamelessness to share it at one of our meetings. It was an outstanding opportunity, particularly because the guys were there in the room with us and could give us their setup, narrative, and answer questions.

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31 minutes ago, maven said:

I know that some around here are reluctant to "judge," and I get why. But for me, this reluctance is "old school" and about something other than officiating. I can respect an official's competence, skill, and achievement, and still say (based on video) that he missed a call — hell, even he might watch it and say the same thing.

Replay gives us a different angle and time to think and discuss, so it's not really a tool for "judging" an official (in any sport). If we watch video and think that a judgment call is missed, the question becomes: what could we have done differently in the same spot to get it right?

That could involve mechanics: if we did something mechanically wrong, we can fix that and be in a better position next time to do it right.

Or the mechanics might be great, and it was a timing issue. Also fixable.

Or, we might have just made a bad call. And video is useful here too: the human brain is a pattern recognition engine, and it gets better the more patterns are uploaded. That's why we rely so heavily on "experience" to move up: we need to have seen a lot of different plays, including goofy ones, so we know how to rule when we see it again.

When we watch a lot of training tapes, we benefit from the experience of other officials, including many who are better than we are. We can see what their judgment was and why they were right (as they usually are) or wrong (as everyone sometimes is). The goal is not self-aggrandizement, but self-improvement, and the guy who made the call usually aims for that as much as we do.

"You can't judge me, you weren't there" is over. I'm not judging him, I'm trying to learn from his call (which in this thread, I think, was wrong).

Here endeth the lesson. :)

Couldn't agree more @maven! My post that followed yours was NOT intended as a reply to your opinion or critique. Rather, an admission that some on U-E (including yourself) are very qualified to critique an umpire, while I personally am not likely qualified to critique a D1 umpire. That said, I also agree with you that most of us can look at, and discuss things in hindsight using a given body of knowledge and the rules, without being judgmental.  

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2 minutes ago, ElkOil said:

Embrace reviewing calls.

Thanks @ElkOil, I do, and I agree with you. Just find it difficult to critique an umpire who's likely forgot more about umpiring than I've learned, but I'm absolutely willing to challenge and be challenged for the sake of getting better. Still, I've got one season in college ball, and the guy in question is calling a power 5, post-season game.. thus my reluctance to opine. But I agree with you AND @maven

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23 minutes ago, kstrunk said:

Just find it difficult to critique an umpire who's likely forgot more about umpiring than I've learned

That's just the bit that I was trying (long-windedly) to push against: we're not critiquing the umpire, we're critiquing the call. The difference is crucial: tearing down the umpire is petty, not constructive, and pointless; critiquing the call is the opposite and aims at making everyone better.

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10 hours ago, maven said:

The difference is crucial: tearing down the umpire is petty, not constructive, and pointless;

Do as I say... Not as I do :rolleyes:

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23 hours ago, Haid D' Salaami said:

so ask yourself this question?..

Did the ball hit the batter?

 

Or did the batter hit the ball?

so the ole--

did he go after the ball

or-----------

did the ball go after him

I like that guidance phrase

did that guidance phrase start in your area?

Congrats on your Conference Championship.

conveniently for whatever reason, the ejection from the game in the OP was not put in the box score or the replay of the game by inning. And the batter brought back walked anyway in the AB. PU has received NCAA Playoff selections in the past. And, assuming the HC could not coach yesterday, Maryland stayed fired up and won again to remain in contention for the Big Ten title.

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On 5/26/2017 at 1:09 PM, maven said:

I know that some around here are reluctant to "judge," and I get why. But for me, this reluctance is "old school" and about something other than officiating. I can respect an official's competence, skill, and achievement, and still say (based on video) that he missed a call — hell, even he might watch it and say the same thing.

Replay gives us a different angle and time to think and discuss, so it's not really a tool for "judging" an official (in any sport). If we watch video and think that a judgment call is missed, the question becomes: what could we have done differently in the same spot to get it right?

That could involve mechanics: if we did something mechanically wrong, we can fix that and be in a better position next time to do it right.

Or the mechanics might be great, and it was a timing issue. Also fixable.

Or, we might have just made a bad call. And video is useful here too: the human brain is a pattern recognition engine, and it gets better the more patterns are uploaded. That's why we rely so heavily on "experience" to move up: we need to have seen a lot of different plays, including goofy ones, so we know how to rule when we see it again.

When we watch a lot of training tapes, we benefit from the experience of other officials, including many who are better than we are. We can see what their judgment was and why they were right (as they usually are) or wrong (as everyone sometimes is). The goal is not self-aggrandizement, but self-improvement, and the guy who made the call usually aims for that as much as we do.

"You can't judge me, you weren't there" is over. I'm not judging him, I'm trying to learn from his call (which in this thread, I think, was wrong).

Here endeth the lesson. :)

Very, very, nicely done lesson.

I should not have to take my children (6-10 years old) to this tournament and hear this type of language said over and over and over again, even without the word you in front. This is not what the Collegiate game is all about. I will not take my children to a pro game and sit anywhere near the field so as to have to deal with this issue which I know is going to happen at the pro level.

But, College Level, no way. This guy could be "heard throughout the whole stadium", and parents should not have to have their children hear and ask about the words that are spewing from his mouth even though the day will come when they will have to be told about these type words. The NCAA should put an immediate clamp on these laced with profanity situations, so an immediate warning is given and then ejected the 2nd time these continually used phrases are used in an argument with or without the word you.

I should not live in fear of this type of language at an amateur game from a representative of this Collegiate school in this environment. If that is how he talks when adults only are around in private, that is one thing, but openly screaming in public is not what the school he represents is all about IMHO.

And this is not his first offense to the rodeo. And so quickly after the first.

While not usually his style, this isn’t the first time Szefc has been tossed from the Big Ten tournament. In 2015, he was ejected during the title game against Michigan. Szefc also took issue with the home plate umpire, whose strike zone he thought was unfair. The umpire, Jim Schaly, ended up ejecting Szefc from the game after multiple delays, and the Terps lost, 4-3. Szefc, who later apologized for his behavior, also was suspended two games by the NCAA.

Let's see how much the school tacks on in addition to whatever the NCAA will do. His outburst in 2015 got him 2 games from the NCAA. Let's see as a repeat offender if the NCAA doubles to 4 his time off. And let's see if this esteemed Collegiate Institution Itself has any intestinal fortitude to add much needed additional remediation with time off and maybe anger management courses.

P.S.---and not that I am personally a Saint either.

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I'm not sure that NCAA knows where it wants baseball to go. One the one hand, it's a man's game, and men swear. They want men to play it, run it, and officiate it. So you're going to have some profanity.

On the other hand, with Omaha all over ESPN, they want this to be a quality alternative to pro ball — the equivalent of CFB vs NFL, with emotional ups and downs, more offense, and more excitement. If that's the product, it will need to be family friendly — in even a smaller DI CFB stadium, you can't hear cursing on the field, so it's different.

Still up in the air, I think.

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I'm not opposed to learning from video, but concerning the hit by pitch, there's very seldom anything to learn from these videos. I learn nothing from an off-angled outfield camera on a hit batter. Show me an ump cam and it's a different story.

I don't know whether Mike got it right or wrong. I'm in no way defending or criticizing him, and I'm not accusing anyone of doing so (other than the post that said it appeared that there was an axe to grind). I'm just trying to figure out how watching this video is going to make you any better at judging a hit by pitch? We don't know what he saw from behind the plate, we're watching a camera in left-center field. 

Guys, this is a split second decision...about 00:00:00:5 (that's 1/2 a second). In that time you have to judge the pitch and the batter's actions and decide if the batter tried to get hit by the ball or did the ball hit the batter. In that time, your vision can be blocked by the catcher and/or hitter. Sometimes you just have to make an educated guess. So to sit in front of your device and say, "Boy, if that happened to me, I would give him first." is a bit silly... you might THINK that's what you would do, but until you're back there and have that 1/2 second to decide, you truly don't know what you would do.

If you really wanted to learn from a situation like this, you would have to go to the source and find out what he had, what he saw, what he was thinking, and how he processed everything. That's easier said than done. I would never advocate for you to track down a college umpire's e-mail address and contact him about a call he had. However, we have had videos posted on here involving UE members who work at a pretty high level (one comes to mind from this year - a play at the plate where the catcher drops the ball, picks it up and then tags the runner). I don't really recall (and I could miss them) seeing any post along the lines of - I think I have something different than you, what did you see that maybe I'm missing? What was going on that made you do what you did? I can speak about this from personal experience. Everyone just wants to speculate, assume without knowing the facts, etc. and that's what leads to upper echelon umpires with valuable information walking away from wanting to help others get better (the old bad apple analogy).

I attended a clinic one time where Rich Garcia was the chief instructor...the first thing he said was something like - If you don't know who I am, I'm the guy who F*#Ked up the fan interference call in the playoffs. Later he broke down how he missed it. That was great information about how he over hustled and got too close and never saw the kid reach over. That's how we truly learn and get better.

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