Flashy Release by F3?

[Radie 88]

This one happened a few weeks ago and it didn't make any difference in a blowout game, but I still find myself thinking about it... So I'll ask...

First the bare bones... No runners, 2 out. Routine grounder to F6. The throw to F3 comes in at knee level... He extendes the glove, it goes into the webbing with enough force to snap his wrist downward... He INSTANTLY flips the ball back up into the air and grabs it with his bare hands. The BR hits the bag as the ball is in the air between the glove and bare hand.

I come up with a big Safe call and announce that it was a bobble. Everyone saw it and there wasn't a sound from anyone except the F3. He was adamant that he did that flashy move on purpose. 

Here's the part that sticks with me: I'm almost 100% certain that he was right... Someone in here once posted a comment that mentioned watching the F3 warm up the rest of the infielders and using that as practice for reading throws as a BU... So that's what I had been doing... I watched this F3 make like 50 "plays" that afternoon and he made that fancy snap-catch almost everytime the ball was at his knees.

Problem was that I was likely the only other person on the field that noticed... Everyone else (including the kids down HC) thought it was a bobble.

I'm worried that I called what appeared to happen to please the "sight test" as opposed to calling what I truly interpreted to have happened.

In case I'm not clear, I'm pretty certain he did it intentionally.

Thoughts?

[White47]

On a close pay he should not be trying to be flashy or mess around, save that for the times you have the BR beat by 10 steps. catch the ball like a normal first baseman. I have no problem with the safe call. 

Also, if it was so quick that coach  thought that it was a bobble it probably was. Almost every time I've ever called that I coach has come out. 

Don't over think stuff, your guts right most of the time. 

[ElkOil]

29 minutes ago, Radie 88 said:

This one happened a few weeks ago and it didn't make any difference in a blowout game, but I still find myself thinking about it... So I'll ask...

First the bare bones... No runners, 2 out. Routine grounder to F6. The throw to F3 comes in at knee level... He extendes the glove, it goes into the webbing with enough force to snap his wrist downward... He INSTANTLY flips the ball back up into the air and grabs it with his bare hands. The BR hits the bag as the ball is in the air between the glove and bare hand.

I come up with a big Safe call and announce that it was a bobble. Everyone saw it and there wasn't a sound from anyone except the F3. He was adamant that he did that flashy move on purpose. 

Here's the part that sticks with me: I'm almost 100% certain that he was right... Someone in here once posted a comment that mentioned watching the F3 warm up the rest of the infielders and using that as practice for reading throws as a BU... So that's what I had been doing... I watched this F3 make like 50 "plays" that afternoon and he made that fancy snap-catch almost everytime the ball was at his knees.

Problem was that I was likely the only other person on the field that noticed... Everyone else (including the kids down HC) thought it was a bobble.

I'm worried that I called what appeared to happen to please the "sight test" as opposed to calling what I truly interpreted to have happened.

In case I'm not clear, I'm pretty certain he did it intentionally.

Thoughts?

If he intentionally released the ball, it's a catch. It's a bobble or no catch if he doesn't intentionally release it. The release is a subsequent part of the action, so as long as the initial catching action was complete, you've got an out.

[VolUmp]

I've been there,  done that and bought the T-shirt. Here's the problem, not even MLB first basemen use that "flashy release" for the very reasons you state. On a close play, especially if he picks it off the grass or the dirt, it can easily appear like a bobble.

You don't state what level you're calling, but I'll use HS as an example. 

I'm not going to work that hard to "get to know an F3's antics" like I would an F1's.  If I'm pretty sure he's got control and trying his fancy flip, OUT.  If it catches me off guard or really looks like it popped out, SAFE.

He'll eventually learn that the "flip" isn't as impressive as he thought.  If it doesn't LOOK like a voluntary release, then it wasn't.

Basketball players travel all the time, get called for it, and then say, "But that's my move!"

You can't lose sleep over an F3 trying to impress you with his "move" that clearly makes the call more difficult to make.

 

Although ElkOil is technically correct, I don't buy his answer ... or "thought."  F3's flirting with disaster. You may have done him a favor in a blowout situation.

[scrounge]

dude wants to play with fire by hotdogging like this, dude gonna get burned....you did him a favor, but only time will tell if he embraces the lesson

[SureAm]

Safe.

Closest thing to a "FYC" call you can get away with nowadays....

Not a lot of thought or debate with the young rat needed.

[Richvee]

Wow..you guys are harsh. I grew up playing 1B. Any play @1B that wasn't close with the bases empty, I'd catch the ball, flip the ball up, catch it in my bare hand, and crow hop off the bag to start the throw around the horn. In all my years playing I only had one OOO call a runner safe. The most obvious FYC I was ever part of. No, it didn't teach me anything and I only stopped doing it in that game. Rest of that game, every put out, I held the ball in the glove, foot on the base and showed the BU the glove, like a fielder would do after making a tag play. My little FU back at him the rest of the night. Yeah, I was a cocky little bastard...but a damn good F3.

[noumpere]

If you see it in the warmups, address it then (if you choose to address it) -- something like "do me a favor and be sure I get a good look at control before you flip the ball up"

[VolUmp]

12 hours ago, noumpere said:

If you see it in the warmups, address it then (if you choose to address it) -- something like "do me a favor and be sure I get a good look at control before you flip the ball up"

At the High School or College Levels?

Never.  That's coaching.

Don't go looking for trouble, but for God's sake, don't lose sleep over what was described in the OP.

It's not much different than an outfielder making a diving catch and then not "showing the ball."

Or a catcher catching a very low foul tip for strike 3 (where you hear his mitt hit the ground), then he doesn't immediately show you the ball.

If you're gonna make me guess, I may guess wrong, and it's your fault.

[noumpere]

6 minutes ago, VolUmp said:

At the High School or College Levels?

Never.  That's coaching.

A2D.  I've used similar comments at both those levels with no problems.

[Kevin_K]

13 hours ago, Richvee said:

Wow..you guys are harsh. I grew up playing 1B. Any play @1B that wasn't close with the bases empty, I'd catch the ball, flip the ball up, catch it in my bare hand, and crow hop off the bag to start the throw around the horn. In all my years playing I only had one OOO call a runner safe. The most obvious FYC I was ever part of. No, it didn't teach me anything and I only stopped doing it in that game. Rest of that game, every put out, I held the ball in the glove, foot on the base and showed the BU the glove, like a fielder would do after making a tag play. My little FU back at him the rest of the night. Yeah, I was a cocky little bastard...but a damn good F3.

Was?  

[maven]

1 hour ago, noumpere said:

A2D.  I've used similar comments at both those levels with no problems.

Me too.

"Do me a favor and be sure I get a good look at control before you flip the ball up" — during warmups — does NOT tell him how to play or give him any kind of tactical advantage unavailable to the other team. It's not coaching.

It DOES remind him what we're looking for and point up a risk he's taking in that regard. That's preventive officiating.

And, when he decides to showboat in a way that takes away an obvious out, and coach comes out fuming, we can report our earlier conversation with F3. Coach's attention should then immediately turn to F3 for being an idiot. And that's game management.

[White47]

13 hours ago, noumpere said:

If you see it in the warmups, address it then (if you choose to address it) -- something like "do me a favor and be sure I get a good look at control before you flip the ball up"

I don't think I've ever payed that much attention to the F3 during warmups. Not a bad idea though. I usually stand off in shallow right and ponder the many wonders of the world. 

 

[maven]

4 minutes ago, White47 said:

I usually stand off in shallow right and ponder the many wonders of the world

[noumpere]

4 minutes ago, White47 said:

I don't think I've ever payed that much attention to the F3 during warmups. Not a bad idea though. I usually stand off in shallow right and ponder the many wonders of the world. 

 

Especially before the game, it's a good way to get your eyes and ears warmed up -- much like PU seeing a few pitches.

[White47]

4 minutes ago, noumpere said:

Especially before the game, it's a good way to get your eyes and ears warmed up -- much like PU seeing a few pitches.

Before the top of the first I normally run a couple of sprints down right field line and do some slight stretching. Gets my blood pumping and get a little extra cardio in for the day. 

 

[Richvee]

8 hours ago, Kevin_K said:

Was?  

Well...not little any more. 

[ElkOil]

10 hours ago, White47 said:

I don't think I've ever payed that much attention to the F3 during warmups. Not a bad idea though. I usually stand off in shallow right and ponder the many wonders of the world. 

 

There's only seven of them. That should leave you plenty of time to work on watching F3, practice looking at the base and listening to the ball hit the glove, working on your timing, identifying anything about his technique relative to this post. You know... umpiry things.

[White47]

There's only seven of them. That should leave you plenty of time to work on watching F3, practice looking at the base and listening to the ball hit the glove, working on your timing, identifying anything about his technique relative to this post. You know... umpiry things.

Well there's actually few more:
7 wonders of the ancient world
7 wonders of the world
7 wonders of the new world
7 natural wonders of the world

I guess I could still squeeze some umpiry things in though.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[VolUmp]

On 5/12/2017 at 10:18 AM, maven said:

"Do me a favor and be sure I get a good look at control before you flip the ball up" — during warmups — does NOT tell him how to play or give him any kind of tactical advantage unavailable to the other team. It's not coaching.

Maven!  This absolutely tells him how to play, and it does give him an advantage.  It quite possibly saved him from an errant "safe" call because you warned him.  This is no different than giving a balk warning to a pitcher.

[maven]

1 hour ago, VolUmp said:

Maven!  This absolutely tells him how to play, and it does give him an advantage.  It quite possibly saved him from an errant "safe" call because you warned him.  This is no different than giving a balk warning to a pitcher.

I don't think you understand preventive officiating.

A balk warning is issued after the infraction. Preventive officiating is done before an infraction.

Preventive officiating would lack point if it didn't prevent an infraction and penalty.

The scope for preventive officiating is inversely proportional to the level of play (in all sports). But I won't try to talk you into explaining the risks of "hot-dogging" to a teenager who's seen a professional player do something and just wants to emulate it. My view that we're part of the adult/instructional presence on the field is probably idiosyncratic.

[Kevin_K]

1 hour ago, maven said:

I don't think you understand preventive officiating.

A balk warning is issued after the infraction. Preventive officiating is done before an infraction.

Preventive officiating would lack point if it didn't prevent an infraction and penalty.

The scope for preventive officiating is inversely proportional to the level of play (in all sports). But I won't try to talk you into explaining the risks of "hot-dogging" to a teenager who's seen a professional player do something and just wants to emulate it. My view that we're part of the adult/instructional presence on the field is probably idiosyncratic.

#gotmavened

[ElkOil]

2 hours ago, Kevin_K said:

#gotmavened

We're gonna trend this.

[scrounge]

I was caught
In the middle of a heated rules post
I looked round
And I knew, knew I was toast
My mind raced
And I thought what could I do
And I knew
There was no help, no help from you
Sound of the drums
Beating in my heart
The thunder of guns
Tore me apart
You've been
Mavenstruck

[noumpere]

4 hours ago, maven said:

I don't think you understand preventive officiating.

A balk warning is issued after the infraction. Preventive officiating is done before an infraction.

Preventive officiating would lack point if it didn't prevent an infraction and penalty.

The scope for preventive officiating is inversely proportional to the level of play (in all sports). But I won't try to talk you into explaining the risks of "hot-dogging" to a teenager who's seen a professional player do something and just wants to emulate it. My view that we're part of the adult/instructional presence on the field is probably idiosyncratic.

All good umpires have this general view of things -- and it extends to other sports as well.