Proper Call, Foul Ball or Batter Out, When Fielder Catches in Foul and then Falls Out of Play?

[OhioTex]

had a fun, spirited debate the other day, and thought i would share to solicit other opinions on the correct umpire call?  
(ORB first, and then if different for NCAA or NFHS)

Situation = 1 out, R1 on 1^st base, Batter 1-1 count,

Description =  Batter pops up in foul territory, left fielder runs in hard and makes play near 3 foot out of play wall. Fielder catches ball in foul territory, but then falls over the wall into the stands out of play.  The fielder shows the catch and ball held in his glove (no debate, catch made). 

Question?  =  What is proper umpire call for both Batter and Runner?

 

Further Context ...(color emphasis added to highlight difference of opinion)

• The discussion started with statement,  "A fielder, after catching a fly ball, falls into dead-ball territory. In this scenario, a fielder having made a legal catch while in live-ball territory, is carried into dead-ball territory, where he then falls. The ball is dead and all base runners advance one base. The batter remains at the plate because it's no longer a catch, but rather simply a foul ball." 
• The counter position was " the ball should be called dead, and runner awarded 2^nd base, and batter should be out" (so 2 outs, next batter up, not Foul ball and batter returns with 1-2 count.)
• the rebuttal cited an interpretation of change in rule 5.06 (b) (3) (c) ,  the rule change by MLB on catch and carry in 2016.  specifically,  " ... catch-and-carry no longer exists. Any live ball that is carried into dead ball territory is now considered a dead ball and is not a legal catch" 

given the situation and the discussion, what is the correct umpire call, in MLB (and then if different  in NCAA or NFHS) 

thanks in advance for the replies and education  

/OhioTex

[Rich Ives]

18 minutes ago, OhioTex said:

had a fun, spirited debate the other day, and thought i would share to solicit other opinions on the correct umpire call?  
(ORB first, and then if different for NCAA or NFHS)

Situation = 1 out, R1 on 1^st base, Batter 1-1 count,

Description =  Batter pops up in foul territory, left fielder runs in hard and makes play near 3 foot out of play wall. Fielder catches ball in foul territory, but then falls over the wall into the stands out of play.  The fielder shows the catch and ball held in his glove (no debate, catch made). 

Question?  =  What is proper umpire call for both Batter and Runner?

 

Further Context ...(color emphasis added to highlight difference of opinion)

• The discussion started with statement,  "A fielder, after catching a fly ball, falls into dead-ball territory. In this scenario, a fielder having made a legal catch while in live-ball territory, is carried into dead-ball territory, where he then falls. The ball is dead and all base runners advance one base. The batter remains at the plate because it's no longer a catch, but rather simply a foul ball." 
• The counter position was " the ball should be called dead, and runner awarded 2^nd base, and batter should be out" (so 2 outs, next batter up, not Foul ball and batter returns with 1-2 count.)
• the rebuttal cited an interpretation of change in rule 5.06 (b) (3) (c) ,  the rule change by MLB on catch and carry in 2016.  specifically,  " ... catch-and-carry no longer exists. Any live ball that is carried into dead ball territory is now considered a dead ball and is not a legal catch" 

given the situation and the discussion, what is the correct umpire call, in MLB (and then if different  in NCAA or NFHS) 

thanks in advance for the replies and education  

/OhioTex

Who comes up with this nonsense?  Have you never seen a player catch a foul ball and fall into the stands?

Batter is out on the catch.

Runners get one base.  The ball is dead but nothing in 5.06(b)(3)(c) negates the out.   

[ElkOil]

This is called a "catch and carry" where the catch is made (batter is out) and runners are awarded one base since the defense deprived them of the opportunity to advance on the catch by carrying the ball into dead ball territory.

So the umpire will signal the catch, then dead ball and make the proper award.

[noumpere]

Rich is right.  It's the same ruling under all codes.

 

This shouldn't have been much of a debate.

[White47]

I can kinda understand the debate, especially because each rule set has a slightly different out of play/catch and carry rule (NCAA's changed this year to line up more closely with FED). But in OP since the player "fell" pretty cut and dry. BR out runner gets a base. 

[Rich Ives]

2 hours ago, White47 said:

I can kinda understand the debate, especially because each rule set has a slightly different out of play/catch and carry rule (NCAA's changed this year to line up more closely with FED). But in OP since the player "fell" pretty cut and dry. BR out runner gets a base. 

There is nothing to debate. The fielder caught a fly ball before leaving live ball territory.

[White47]

There is nothing to debate. The fielder caught a fly ball before leaving live ball territory.

I didn't say they could be a deep debate, just that this topic could lead to discussion on catch and carry rules across the different rule sets. Easy call all the way. And the alternate options given a OP are a little out there. I guess i worded my first post poorly.

 

[Radie 88]

Let's try to remember that this section is specifically for non umpires to come and ask questions.

By definition, we shouldn't expect a full comprehension of the rules.

[OhioTex]

Thanks for the fast replies. Seems to be consensus so far, batter out.  As i expected. 

@ ALL   @ Rich ives,  @ noumpere  @ elkOil  @ white47 @ Radie 88 - ALL THANKS ..  - I can not elaborate more on the "foul" side logic,   because I advocated the out. the statements i posted were nearly verbatim and advocated an illegal catch. that said, I truly respect the others opinion, he is more senior than me . At times we all can get confused and get a 'misunderstanding' stuck in our head, and just hard to get out. .and  Ok, perhaps some  adult beverages may have added to the discussion  .(grin) 

@Rich ives,..  yes, I have seen, and part of what prompted the debate.  i suspect you have too ..  .. See last sunday May 9, 12th inning, Cubs Yankees (Schwarber Catch)  and Last month April 26, 3rd inning, Yankees vs Red socks (Judge catch) both ended up feet over wall with the called outs made.  In high school ball, more likely a simple step across a painted or even an imaginary out of bounds line  (the over the wall and MLB scenario seemed more clear for a forum post scenario) - In fact, in researching this, my partner found  NFHS Case book 5.1.1 L  cleared up for high school. 

@white47 - You say, Cut and Dry because "he fell" ...  Is falling really a key part?  I would think not, i think what  matters is catch made in field of play and then fielder went out of play - regardless if fell, walked, Ran  or just stepped out of play  (in MLB of course no simple lines to just walk out of play, rather walls and dug outs) . 

@Radie 88 - thanks for the understanding and reminder. I am a new umpire and trying to learn and improve and when a more senior umpire than me has a different point of view, i try to listen, understand and learn. this time i may have been right, but that is not always the case-  the shoe can often be on the other foot.

[stkjock]

the MLB outs you refer to above, IIRC, the catch was made, the player then falls into the stands, the umpire runs down to make sure the ball is secure, then signals the out.

 

Found the Scharber play, watch the replay @  39 seconds thru 45 seconds, you can see Alan Porter do what I described.

 

http://m.mlb.com/video/topic/11493214/v1366590583/must-c-catch-schwarber-flips-into-stands-holds-on/?query=schwarber

[Rich Ives]

49 minutes ago, OhioTex said:

Thanks for the fast replies. Seems to be consensus so far, batter out.  As i expected. 

@white47 - You say, Cut and Dry because "he fell" ...  Is falling really a key part?  I would think not, i think what  matters is catch made in field of play and then fielder went out of play - regardless if fell, walked, Ran  or just stepped out of play  (in MLB of course no simple lines to just walk out of play, rather walls and dug outs) . 

 

OBR: Falling used to matter. Falling made the ball dead. Staying upright kept the ball live. It's dead now.

Others may have kept the older rule.

[White47]

OBR: Falling used to matter. Falling made the ball dead. Staying upright kept the ball live. It's dead now. Others may have kept the older rule.

 

I didn't think OBR changed. I know college did this year or last.

But, yes falling/losing balance matter before. For example, if a player crossed dead ball line (lots of college fields have these), like in a large opening or something, and the player didn't fall, the ball stayed in play. I can't remember if he had to renter live ball area to throw or not. But what this means is that the runners do not get a free base.

This is something I've never see happen or even heard about besides Case plays. I guess since the rules has change, according to rich ives, I never will.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[OhioTex]

 @rich ives, thanks. that is helpful to know