Jump to content
refump10

Another Courtesy runner question

Recommended Posts

F1 #6 is replaced in the bottom of the fourth by new F1 #26.  In top of 7th, #6 reenters as a pinch hitter for #26 and singles.  HC wants to use a courtesy runner for #6, since he hit for the pitcher.  Is this legal?  Couldn't find anywhere in the rule book or case book addressing this situation.  Thanks for the help.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
F1 #6 is replaced in the bottom of the fourth by new F1 #26.  In top of 7th, #6 reenters as a pinch hitter for #26 and singles.  HC wants to use a courtesy runner for #6, since he hit for the pitcher.  Is this legal?  Couldn't find anywhere in the rule book or case book addressing this situation.  Thanks for the help.

Only if #6 is going back in the F1 spot. Normally just pinch hitters cannot have courtesy runners.


Sent from my SM-G928V using Tapatalk

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sorry to answer my own question, but I think I found the answer to my question. Case Book 3.1.1 Situation N. Without regurgitating the whole thing, this is considered a projected substitution.  A courtesy runner is only allowed for either the pitcher or catcher on defense before coming to bat, since projected substitutions are not allowed.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, Mike D said:


Only if #6 is going back in the F1 spot. Normally just pinch hitters cannot have courtesy runners.


Sent from my SM-G928V using Tapatalk
 

Incorrect. You can run only for the F1 or F2 of the previous inning (or as listed on the lineup in the top of the first). 

 

If, earlier in the game, #4 had PH for starter #6,  then #6 could re-enter and have a CR. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, refump10 said:

Sorry to answer my own question, but I think I found the answer to my question. Case Book 3.1.1 Situation N. Without regurgitating the whole thing, this is considered a projected substitution.  A courtesy runner is only allowed for either the pitcher or catcher on defense before coming to bat, since projected substitutions are not allowed.

Don't be sorry: most of us encourage people to get their noses in the book and find the answers for themselves! Well done.

I don't however, think of this case as an instance of "projected substitution." It's not a projected substitution because, by batting, the player has already re-entered the game — nothing projected about it.

[That's the case play's fault, not yours: I agree with the ruling, just not its verbiage. In 3.1.1N, the coach wants to move his fielders around and use a CR for the "new" F2; how weird to call this a "substitution" at all, much less a projected one!]

The problem is that the re-entered player need not re-enter as pitcher: his re-entry privilege is independent of whether he returns to the mound. Indeed, after his team's half inning ends, some other sub might come in to pitch. Because he did not pitch in the previous half inning, he is not the pitcher of record (or, if you prefer, not the most recent pitcher). And that's why he gets no CR (by interpretation — this provision is not explicit in the CR rules).

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Many umpire confuse the projected substitution rule to say that coach can't tell you that B9 will reenter to play defense the next half inning...

The reason FED doesn't allow projected subs is strictly due to the courtesy runner...which has probably been captured in this thread already.

PH9 pinch hits and reaches first base, coach says, "I'm going to CR for him b/c he's going to catch next half inning"

He would have to pinch run, not use a CR, because PH9 has to play defense as F2 before he can have a CR...exception would be the top of the first inning of course.

I should add that when you do not allow it, expect a discussion because your peers have likely allowed it at one point or another which is likely why he is going to try it.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, johnnyg08 said:

The reason FED doesn't allow projected subs is strictly due to the courtesy runner...which has probably been captured in this thread already.

This statement is not strictly correct, John. Many states do not adopt speed-up rules at all, and some only in limited ways. It is true that the only case play that mentions projected substitution is 3.1.1N, which also involves CR's.

Even without CR's, we still have reason not to accept projected substitutions, namely that they're not binding. If a coach says, "24 will re-enter," and the opposing coach makes a change (burns a sub) to counter it, the coach need not re-enter 24 and might gain an advantage if he substitutes for 24. Subs are official when they're official.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, maven said:

This statement is not strictly correct, John. Many states do not adopt speed-up rules at all, and some only in limited ways. It is true that the only case play that mentions projected substitution is 3.1.1N, which also involves CR's.

Even without CR's, we still have reason not to accept projected substitutions, namely that they're not binding. If a coach says, "24 will re-enter," and the opposing coach makes a change (burns a sub) to counter it, the coach need not re-enter 24 and might gain an advantage if he substitutes for 24. Subs are official when they're official.

Oh sure. I don't dispute that. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This is a situation where the intent of the rule (to speed up the game) crashes violently with the rule. It makes no sense, by intent, to have the CR run for the last catcher/pitcher. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Matt said:

This is a situation where the intent of the rule (to speed up the game) crashes violently with the rule. It makes no sense, by intent, to have the CR run for the last catcher/pitcher. 

It works correctly in 90% of the situations.  While I'd like it to read "next F1 / F2" I'm not sure how they would word that (or have an appropriate penalty) to avoid the games that would be played.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, noumpere said:

It works correctly in 90% of the situations.  While I'd like it to read "next F1 / F2" I'm not sure how they would word that (or have an appropriate penalty) to avoid the games that would be played.

That's the issue: we'd have to start enforcing projected position changes and projected substitutions.

That's not impossible, merely undesirable. :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
That's the issue: we'd have to start enforcing projected position changes and projected substitutions.
That's not impossible, merely undesirable.

So we have a 'projected catcher' come out the next inning for one pitch, then the coach puts his 'real' guy back there... What a speed up rule! Haha

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, ALStripes17 said:

So we have a 'projected catcher' come out the next inning for one pitch, then the coach puts his 'real' guy back there... What a speed up rule! Haha

We had a coach and League Board Member who hated the CR rules so much (maybe ten years ago) for rec ball that he threatened that every time his team had two outs and two strikes on the batter, he'd call time and have his catcher swap with his fattest kid for the final pitch to get out of the inning, just so his "catcher of record" was always the slow kid.  I eventually decided not to follow through with it ..............

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So based on the pitcher/catcher of record element aspect of the CR rules the correct answer to the following question would be "C", correct?  If not I'm f'in confused.

 

S1 pinch hits for the catcher and singles.  The head coach wants to insert a CR (CR1) for S1, who is going to enter the game as the new catcher.  The umpire takes the following action:

a. Allows CR1 to replace S1.

b. Removes the catcher for CR1.

c. Does not allow it because S1 is not the catcher of record, but is not eligible because he participated in the game in another capacity.

d.  Does nothing because it was not indicated prior to the start of the game that courtesy runners were going to be used.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, indianaumpire15 said:

So based on the pitcher/catcher of record element aspect of the CR rules the correct answer to the following question would be "C", correct?  If not I'm f'in confused.

 

S1 pinch hits for the catcher and singles.  The head coach wants to insert a CR (CR1) for S1, who is going to enter the game as the new catcher.  The umpire takes the following action:

a. Allows CR1 to replace S1.

b. Removes the catcher for CR1.

c. Does not allow it because S1 is not the catcher of record, but is not eligible because he participated in the game in another capacity.

d.  Does nothing because it was not indicated prior to the start of the game that courtesy runners were going to be used.

C is the best answer, but I don't understand the second half of the answer.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, noumpere said:

C is the best answer, but I don't understand the second half of the answer.

Haha me either.  And I thought the NCAA DH rule was confusing.  At least I have a small laminated card  for my line up wallet to help me not screw up that one during games.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...