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2 runners miss bases


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Bases Loaded 1 out I am in the field.  Sharp single to the outfield and R3 and R2 score R1 to 3rd B/R on first.  Coach appeals R1 missed 2nd base (he did) I get the out.  They then appeal that R2 missed 3rd and my partner called the out.  Coach was happy because he thought they had just stopped the run from scoring.  We explained to the coach by appealing the miss of 2nd first it then made the miss of 3rd a time play and one run would still score.  We explained if he went to appeal 3rd first then 2nd both would still be force plays and no runs would have scored.  Are we correct on this one or did we kick it?

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4 minutes ago, noumpere said:

Correct -- at least in FED and NCAA.  The order of "relaxed action" appeals matters.  There might be some differing OBR interps on this.

Wendelstedt says order does not matter if both appeals were forced at the time of the miss.

I also do not necessarily agree for FED. I had my state interpreter forward this question to Hopkins two years ago, with no response.

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40 minutes ago, Matt said:

Wendelstedt says order does not matter if both appeals were forced at the time of the miss.

I also do not necessarily agree for FED.

I agree with you.

The plain language of the FED rule suggests that the order does not matter: "With two outs, if the base missed was the first to which the batter or runner was forced to advance, no runs would score." Appeal R1 for out #2, then appeal R2 for out #3: was 3B the first base to which R2 was forced to advance? Yes, so no run can score. 8-2-6k

As we know, FED has boatloads of "authoritative" rulings that don't fit the plain language of their rules (not so many in recent years, though).

IIRC, NCAA explicitly makes the order of appeals matter.

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From 2006:

 

SITUATION 12: With R1 on third and R2 on second base and one out, B4 hits a line drive into the gap in right center field. R1 scores easily. R2 misses third base as he advances, but does touch home plate. B4 makes it to second base on an apparent double, but missed first base on his advance. After playing action is over, the defensive head coach is granted time and first appeals B4 missing first base and then appeals R2 missing third base. RULING: This is a legal appeal by the defense as the coach may verbally appeal a base running infraction when the ball is dead and may make multiple appeals. B4 would be declared out for the second out and R2 would be the third out. R1’s run would count. (8-2-6c,f; 9-1-1)

SITUATION 13: With R1 on third and R2 on second base and one out, B4 hits a line drive into the gap in right center field. R1 scores easily. R2 misses third base as he advances, but does touch home plate. B4 makes it to second base on an apparent double, but missed first base on his advance. After playing action is over, the defensive head coach is granted time and first appeals R2 missing third base and then appeals B4 missing first base. RULING: This is a legal appeal by the defense as the coach may verbally appeal a base running infraction when the ball is dead and may make multiple appeals. R2 would be declared out for out number two and B4 would be the third out. No runs would score as B4’s out is out number three and was made before he touched first base. The order in which appeals are made can be important in determining if runs will score. (8-2-6c,f, 9-1-1a)
 

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20 minutes ago, noumpere said:

From 2006:

 

SITUATION 12: With R1 on third and R2 on second base and one out, B4 hits a line drive into the gap in right center field. R1 scores easily. R2 misses third base as he advances, but does touch home plate. B4 makes it to second base on an apparent double, but missed first base on his advance. After playing action is over, the defensive head coach is granted time and first appeals B4 missing first base and then appeals R2 missing third base. RULING: This is a legal appeal by the defense as the coach may verbally appeal a base running infraction when the ball is dead and may make multiple appeals. B4 would be declared out for the second out and R2 would be the third out. R1’s run would count. (8-2-6c,f; 9-1-1)

SITUATION 13: With R1 on third and R2 on second base and one out, B4 hits a line drive into the gap in right center field. R1 scores easily. R2 misses third base as he advances, but does touch home plate. B4 makes it to second base on an apparent double, but missed first base on his advance. After playing action is over, the defensive head coach is granted time and first appeals R2 missing third base and then appeals B4 missing first base. RULING: This is a legal appeal by the defense as the coach may verbally appeal a base running infraction when the ball is dead and may make multiple appeals. R2 would be declared out for out number two and B4 would be the third out. No runs would score as B4’s out is out number three and was made before he touched first base. The order in which appeals are made can be important in determining if runs will score. (8-2-6c,f, 9-1-1a)
 

THAT(force and non force) order of appeals matters in all codes including OBR. What differs in OBR is that the order of two forced base appeals does not matter. FED doesn't have a ruling on two forced base appeals.

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On 6/27/2016 at 9:47 AM, OHUMP said:

Bases Loaded 1 out I am in the field.  Sharp single to the outfield and R3 and R2 score R1 to 3rd B/R on first.  Coach appeals R1 missed 2nd base (he did) I get the out.  They then appeal that R2 missed 3rd and my partner called the out.  Coach was happy because he thought they had just stopped the run from scoring.  We explained to the coach by appealing the miss of 2nd first it then made the miss of 3rd a time play and one run would still score.  We explained if he went to appeal 3rd first then 2nd both would still be force plays and no runs would have scored.  Are we correct on this one or did we kick it?

OK... How is an appeal of a missed base a "force" play?  You mean this isn't STRICTLY a timing play?

Thanks

 

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10 minutes ago, stl_ump said:

OK... How is an appeal of a missed base a "force" play?  You mean this isn't STRICTLY a timing play?

2 outs: R1, R2, both stealing, batter singles, R2 scores, R1 takes 3B but misses 2B. When the defense appeals R1's missed base, it's a force play because he was forced to advance. No run scores: not a time play.

Compare:

2 outs: R1, R2, both stealing, batter doubles, R2 scores, R1 scores but misses 3B. When the defense appeals R1's missed base, it's not a force play, because he was not forced to advance to 3B. R1's run is nullified, but R2's run counts: this is a time play.

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From the 2016 Baseball Rules Differences (section 13, p. 26):

Appeals: Order of

FED:  Point not covered. Official Interpretation: Hopkins:  If the defense will make multiple appeals:  When a force play situation is in effect, the appeals must be made in the proper order. (Website 2003 #4; affirmed, 2006 # 12 and 13)

NCAA:  If the defense will make more than one appeal, the defense must appeal in the correct order. (8-6b-9)

OBR:  Point not covered. Official Interpretation: Wendelstedt:  Same as FED. (WRIM—section 8.4.3.e)

“After the third out has been made, the defense may continue to make appeals on runners for missing bases or for not properly tagging up. They may replace any of these outs with the third out if it is advantageous in preventing runs from scoring.

“This is not the case if the appeals make for exactly three outs. If multiple appeals are made which only create three outs, the defense is restricted by the order in which they appeal.”

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But this is all dependent on it being R1 and R2 or R1 and R2 and R3?  In other words a force situation right?

Or an R1 only and that R1 misses 2B...

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

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1 hour ago, Senor Azul said:

From the 2016 Baseball Rules Differences (section 13, p. 26):

 

Appeals: Order of

 

FED:  Point not covered. Official Interpretation: Hopkins:  If the defense will make multiple appeals:  When a force play situation is in effect, the appeals must be made in the proper order. (Website 2003 #4; affirmed, 2006 # 12 and 13)

 

NCAA:  If the defense will make more than one appeal, the defense must appeal in the correct order. (8-6b-9)

 

OBR:  Point not covered. Official Interpretation: Wendelstedt:  Same as FED. (WRIM—section 8.4.3.e)

 

“After the third out has been made, the defense may continue to make appeals on runners for missing bases or for not properly tagging up. They may replace any of these outs with the third out if it is advantageous in preventing runs from scoring.

 

“This is not the case if the appeals make for exactly three outs. If multiple appeals are made which only create three outs, the defense is restricted by the order in which they appeal.”

 

Unless Wendelstedt has changed their opinion since 2012, the order of two forced base appeals does not matter. The problem with the BRD is that he doesn't narrow down what is being appealed, two forced bases or a force and non force base. FED only has case plays on the order of a force and no forced base appeal. 

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