Jump to content
LTL509

Manager Warning

Recommended Posts

So had this happen tonight and I would like opinions. Play at third Home team in field F5 misses swipe tag I'm in C right on top of it "Safe". Coach comes out of 1B dugout "did you call him safe? Yes coach no tag. F5 now chimes in I tagged his helmet. I say no tag, coach goes back to dugout. Bottom half of inning same team now has R2 steals third and he's gone not close for out 2. End of inning coach walks over to me and says " So you missed the tag on the helmet and you missed his leg getting under the tag at 3 rd." I say coach that's enough we are not debating safes and outs. He Calmly says  I'm not arguing i say even asking is arguing and we're done. He says I'm not arguing again and I say final warning coach we're done. That was that but at the end of the game he asked my partner what my name is so I'm sure he's headed home to fire off an email. So what do you think? Should I have let him jaw a bit on me or warn right when he approaches the way he did? Thanks in advance for your thoughts.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, LTL509 said:

So had this happen tonight and I would like opinions. Play at third Home team in field F5 misses swipe tag I'm in C right on top of it "Safe". Coach comes out of 1B dugout "did you call him safe? Yes coach no tag. F5 now chimes in I tagged his helmet. I say no tag, coach goes back to dugout. Bottom half of inning same team now has R2 steals third and he's gone not close for out 2. End of inning coach walks over to me and says " So you missed the tag on the helmet and you missed his leg getting under the tag at 3 rd." I say coach that's enough we are not debating safes and outs. A decent effort to try to shut him down. I would have said, "That's history. We're not discussing history."  He Calmly says  I'm not arguing i say even asking is arguing and we're done. Seems like you started to argue whether he he is arguing. Maybe a better response would have been, "OK, but we're done discussing those plays". He says I'm not arguing again Good...then there is nothing left to discuss and I say final warning coach we're done. That was that but at the end of the game he asked my partner what my name is so I'm sure he's headed home to fire off an email. So what do you think? Should I have let him jaw a bit on me or warn right when he approaches the way he did? Thanks in advance for your thoughts.

These can be knotty situations. I think he was trying to pick a fight....sometimes they are unavoidable. It was good that you didn't debate the previous plays, that would have been playing right into his hands. Sometimes coach will claim that he's not arguing he just asking a question. In your case the premise of his question is faulty, so I wouldn't entertain that kind of question and would instead attempt to shut him down. 

Sometimes its not what we say, but how we say it.  And I don't have a good system for how you should say something versus HOW YOU SAY SOMETHING. The text book probably says (though I may have skipped this chapter) to remain calm, but cut off this kind of discussion ASAP. But when the coach is trying to get under your skin, that is easier said than done. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, ricka56 said:

So you missed the tag on the helmet and you missed his leg getting under the tag at 3 rd."

How 'bout this... "Do you have a question for me Joe?... Because I'm not discussing past plays with you". 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

"We aren't going there...(insert coach's name), nothing more to discuss"...and walk away. You don't have to get into a discussion, you don't have to warn or debate. If you keep re-engaging him then it looks like you want to discuss calls that are not open for discussion.   Remember, they can never use what you DON'T say against you.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

With no question, I'm probably walking away and looking for baseballs or a between-innings drink.  Anything I say there won't be taken well, so why say anything?

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There's one that always rubs me the wrong way. You had a play, you called and signaled safe, I assume that you did nothing that resembled an out call, and the runner is still standing on the bag. Coach comes out and asks, "Did you call him safe?". Well....duh!

Of course you called him safe. If you had called him out the ticked off coach wouldn't be out there asking you stupid questions!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, RichMSN said:

The opposite bothers me -- I call a runner out and the manager tells the runner to stay on the base.

Umm, no.  

So you agree to get help. ask your partner, and reverse the call with new info. Then the other coach is going to say the runner should be out because he went into the dugout. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't have a problem if they stay there to make sure. Even coaches and players are sometimes not paying attention to the call.

 

No Rich, he's not. It's fixing the call. Seems like a good time to stare blankly and blink at the other coach or just shake your head.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Rich Ives said:

So you agree to get help. ask your partner, and reverse the call with new info. Then the other coach is going to say the runner should be out because he went into the dugout. 

This "stay on the base" crap *never* happens when the coach wants me to get help for something reasonable -- the coach is leading with the request and the reason.  It only happens when the coach thinks I missed the call and it's just a matter of opinion -- so that coach is getting a short leash.

 

But, if it does happen as you say, then the "other coach" isn't long for the game (or at least is going to get a warning).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Rich Ives said:

Y'all know the runner stays at the base during replays. ;)   

Yep -- and I allow that when I work games with replay, too.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On June 10, 2016 at 2:24 PM, Rich Ives said:

So you agree to get help. ask your partner, and reverse the call with new info. Then the other coach is going to say the runner should be out because he went into the dugout. 

I rarely agree to "get help."  4 times in 30 years that's happened (one of them *was* this year, so I'll do it when I feel it's warranted).  So I think the most practical thing is to let me bring the runner out if we overturn a call.  I wouldn't even entertain the other coach's argument that there was abandonment.

This isn't the usual context, though.  I call a runner out, and the coach says immediately, "Stay on the base!"  Um, no.  I've called the runner out.  Go to the dugout.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
25 minutes ago, RichMSN said:

I rarely agree to "get help."  4 times in 30 years that's happened (one of them *was* this year, so I'll do it when I feel it's warranted).  So I think the most practical thing is to let me bring the runner out if we overturn a call.  I wouldn't even entertain the other coach's argument that there was abandonment.

This isn't the usual context, though.  I call a runner out, and the coach says immediately, "Stay on the base!"  Um, no.  I've called the runner out.  Go to the dugout.

Given that we now see MLB players waiting on the base for the replay review to be completed I think you need to be ready for this to be thought  of as normal.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Rich Ives said:

Given that we now see MLB players waiting on the base for the replay review to be completed I think you need to be ready for this to be thought  of as normal.

I coach more than I umpire now and I do not consider it normal.  When my girls are called out, they go right to the dugout.

Then again, I don't come out on judgment calls.  There are few where I think it would get things overturned, and I'm looking at the big picture -- sometimes it's just better to live with an incorrect call.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
26 minutes ago, Rich Ives said:

Given that we now see MLB players waiting on the base for the replay review to be completed I think you need to be ready for this to be thought  of as normal.

Completely different scenarios.

2/3 (SWAG) of replays get overturned.  It makes sense to stay.

100% of the time (not such a  SWAG)  when a manager at our level says "stay on the bag" he's doing it to show us up.

 

 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, noumpere said:

Completely different scenarios.

2/3 (SWAG) of replays get overturned.  It makes sense to stay.

100% of the time (not such a  SWAG)  when a manager at our level says "stay on the bag" he's doing it to show us up.

 

 

Exactly.  

I'll say this -- I work damned hard on the bases to get in position to make a call.  I see other umpires use B or C as their starting and finishing points and quickly realize why they're always asking for "help."  Help yourself.

Of the 4 times I've gone for help, I knew immediately that I kicked the crap out of the call 3 of those times.  Going to my partner was mainly a mechanism to fix my stupidity.

The odds of me going for help just cause a coach says "stay on the base" don't increase, not at all.

As a coach I have come out once this season -- U3K, first occupied.  The opposing B-R ran on strike 3, I couldn't get my catcher to not throw down (and I didn't remind her of the situation beforehand), and the B-R ran all the way to second on the throw into right field.  As the umpires were about to put it in play, I realized they weren't going to fix things and called time and went out to discuss it with them.  They fixed it and the opposing coach had a you-know-what-eating grin on her face.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
46 minutes ago, RichMSN said:

As a coach I have come out once this season -- U3K, first occupied.  The opposing B-R ran on strike 3, I couldn't get my catcher to not throw down (and I didn't remind her of the situation beforehand), and the B-R ran all the way to second on the throw into right field.  As the umpires were about to put it in play, I realized they weren't going to fix things and called time and went out to discuss it with them.  They fixed it and the opposing coach had a you-know-what-eating grin on her face.

and R1 was on third and stayed I take it?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, stkjock said:

and R1 was on third and stayed I take it?

Of course.  I thought about half-heartedly arguing that running to first wasn't interference (I tell my players to run on strike three every time myself), but her running to second and drawing a throw makes it an interesting conversation, at least.

I didn't bother.  I'll pick my moments to advocate for my team -- that didn't seem like a good one to me.  They're 10 and 11 years old.

I stayed and watched a game after ours on Saturday.  Runner called out at the plate and the third base coach probably did enough to get ejected twice.  In all honesty, I would've walked straight to the dugout -- even though I agree that the umpire missed the call.  Arguing with him didn't change the call -- so what's the point showing your backside in front of a bunch of kids?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 6/13/2016 at 11:04 AM, noumpere said:

Completely different scenarios.

2/3 (SWAG) of replays get overturned.  It makes sense to stay.

100% of the time (not such a  SWAG)  when a manager at our level says "stay on the bag" he's doing it to show us up.

 

 

You really think that 100% of the time a manager that says "stay on the bag" is doing it to show us up?  I've never viewed it as such.  He is advocating for his team, which is his job. Every time a coach has said that to me, he has then come out and asked for me to get help or questioned something about the play.  I just don't see the point in even worrying about where his runner is when this occurs or what his motive is for doing it.  He disagreed with me and we are about to have a hopefully short, uneventful conversation about what I saw.  The last thing I want to do is make a stink about where his runner is, or have anger at where his runner is bias me prior to that conversation taking place.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 7/6/2016 at 0:42 PM, RichMSN said:

I'll have the conversation as soon as the rumner's in the dugout.

With all due respect can you explain the importance of the runner going to the dugout prior to the conversation taking place?  It just seems unnecessary to create a disagreement over that.  I can't understand why a better course of action wouldn't be to just ignore the fact that the runner is on the base and deal with the call.  Once you have told the coach what you saw and why you don't need to get help, then the runner goes back to the dugout.  If you demand that the runner go back to the dugout first then you risk that being a point of contention as well as the call.  Is there some reason I'm missing here as to why you don't want to allow this?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Because when a runner is called out, he's to go to the dugout. Once we have the conversation and the runner is still out, I don't want a production while the player NOW goes off the field.

Just like when I have a conversation with another umpire, all coaches are in a coaching box or dugout.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And there's no reason this has to be contentious.

"Skip, send him to the dugout, please. We can always get him back here if we need to."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...