When to call time on a balk

[calablue]

OBR.  No count on the batter, R1 stealing on the pitch.  The pitcher balks.  The pitch bounces in the dirt and F2 fields the ball cleanly (not a passed ball situation).  If R1 continues past second base heading to third, does play continue or is time called as soon F2 fields the ball?   I'm assuming that because all runners AND the batter do not advance one base, that time is called as soon as F2 fields the ball cleanly. And the results would be R2 and the batter with no count still. Is this correct?

[stkjock]

 

caveat - I'm not an umpire, however, sounds like a live ball situation to me until play naturally stops.

 

pet peeve of mine as a coach - umpires calling time while I still have players in motion and possibility to advance still exists. 

 

 

[noumpere]

Why would time be called at all?  Either you left something out of the OP, or I missed it in my reading, or the ball just stays live.

[ALStripes17]

Batter with no count? The pitch was a ball if it bounced (with no swing).

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[maineump]

24 minutes ago, calablue said:

OBR.  No count on the batter, R1 stealing on the pitch. The pitch bounces in the dirt and F2 fields the ball cleanly (not a passed ball situation).  If R1 continues past second base heading to third, does play continue or is time called as soon F2 fields the ball?   I'm assuming that because all runners AND the batter do not advance one base, that time is called as soon as F2 fields the ball cleanly. And the results would be R2 and the batter with no count still. Is this correct?

First of all you have BALL 1. Are you looking at a possible Balk call? Why would we call time on a dirt ball with a stolen base? There is something missing in the OP

[maven]

Rule #2 of speedier games: Never call time without reason — when the ball is dead, the defense cannot record outs.

[calablue]

OK sorry guys. The pitcher balks and continues with the pitch. I can't believe I forgot to put that in there, that was the main idea.  I have edited the OP

[noumpere]

8 minutes ago, calablue said:

OK sorry guys. The pitcher balks and continues with the pitch. I can't believe I forgot to put that in there, that was the main idea.  I have edited the OP

Then yes, call time when F2 catches / gloves the pitch.  Your reasoning in the OP (" I'm assuming that because all runners AND the batter do not advance one base") is a little off -- we only care about the runner in this situation.  We only care about the batter when he becomes a runner.

[ALStripes17]

Then yes, call time when F2 catches / gloves the pitch.  Your reasoning in the OP (" I'm assuming that because all runners AND the batter do not advance one base") is a little off -- we only care about the runner in this situation.  We only care about the batter when he becomes a runner.

With a pitch, we do care whether or not the batter advances. If all runners including BR advance on a pitch (with a balk), then the balk is ignored. The batter is excluded from that when no pitch occurs (pickoff).

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[basejester]

APPROVED RULING: In cases where a pitcher balks and throws wild, either to
a base or to home plate, a runner or runners may advance beyond the base to which
he is entitled at his own risk.

[calablue]

Noumpere, what I should have said  was: I'm assuming that because the runner AND the batter did not advance one base, the balk is enforced.  And my question should have been: does time get called as soon as F2 fields the ball ( not a passed ball situation ) and if so, then R1 cannot advance past 2B. Is this correct?   Thank you for your reply. I think I get it now; The only way that R1 can advance past 2b on the balk (without the batter becoming a runner) is if F1 makes a wild throw or a wild pitch. Is this right?

[Jimurray]

PBUC/MiLBUM/MLBUM advise not to call time until all play is stopped. They then give explanations of when that would be and on a pitch would be when it is caught by the catcher. I think in the OP you would wait until all play is stopped. 

[maven]

5 minutes ago, calablue said:

Noumpere, what I should have said  was: I'm assuming that because the runner AND the batter did not advance one base, the balk is enforced.  And my question should have been: does time get called as soon as F2 fields the ball ( not a passed ball situation ) and if so, then R1 cannot advance past 2B. Is this correct?  

That's correct. I posted a reference in this thread.

2 minutes ago, Jimurray said:

PBUC/MiLBUM/MLBUM advise not to call time until all play is stopped. They then give explanations of when that would be and on a pitch would be when it is caught by the catcher. I think in the OP you would wait until all play is stopped. 

I disagree. Kill it when F2 fields the pitch cleanly. OBR balks already have sufficient potential to become a shît show without our letting things get out of hand.

[noumpere]

27 minutes ago, ALStripes17 said:

With a pitch, we do care whether or not the batter advances. If all runners including BR advance on a pitch (with a balk), then the balk is ignored. The batter is excluded from that when no pitch occurs (pickoff).

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Disagree, but maybe it's just my reading mis-comprehension.

 

If F1 balks and pitches the ball to the backstop (not ball 4) and R1 advances to third on the WP, then we are letting R1 stay at third.  The balk is ignored for the runner, but acknowledged for the batter (the batter remains at the plate with the same count as before the balk).  This is true even though "the batter AND all runners do not advance a base..."  If we went with both having to be true, we'd put R1 back at second.

[Jimurray]

1 minute ago, maven said:

That's correct. I posted a reference in this thread.

I disagree. Kill it when F2 fields the pitch cleanly. OBR balks already have sufficient potential to become a shît show without our letting things get out of hand.

The explanation actually has caught in bold. A pitch in the dirt can not be caught. Another criteria for calling time per PBUC is when all runners have stopped trying to advance and a fielder is in possession of the ball in the infield. I would leave the ball live until that happened. And then deal with the show.

[ALStripes17]

Disagree, but maybe it's just my reading mis-comprehension.

 

If F1 balks and pitches the ball to the backstop (not ball 4) and R1 advances to third on the WP, then we are letting R1 stay at third.  The balk is ignored for the runner, but acknowledged for the batter (the batter remains at the plate with the same count as before the balk).  This is true even though "the batter AND all runners do not advance a base..."  If we went with both having to be true, we'd put R1 back at second.

We don't 'let R1 stay at 3B on a pitch to the backstop.' Technically, we are awarding him 3B on the balk since he (R2) and the batter did not advance. Balks are either entirely enforced or entirely ignored. The runner is unable to take any more bases on a pitch in your scenario since the batter did not reach 1B (balk must be enforced). If there is no pitch in the scenario and a balk occurs, then the 'ignore the balk' caveat only applies to runners advancing one base and the batter is excluded (because he would have never had a chance to become a BR anyway).

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[maven]

4 minutes ago, ALStripes17 said:

We don't 'let R1 stay at 3B on a pitch to the backstop.' Technically, we are awarding him 3B on the balk since he (R2) and the batter did not advance. The runner is unable to take any more bases on a pitch in your scenario since the batter did not reach 1B (balk must be enforced). If there is no pitch in the scenario and a balk occurs, then the 'ignore the balk' caveat only applies to runners advancing one base and the batter is excluded (because he would have never had a chance to become a BR anyway).

This is not correct. The way to think of the balk penalty here is a live-ball award, similar to an OBS award. R1 is protected to 2B, but he may advance beyond the awarded base at his own risk.

There's a (OBR, obviously) case play somewhere in which R1 steals, F1 balks and pitches wild, and R1 is thrown out at 3B. The out stands.

If you were right and we awarded him 3B on the balk, then we'd keep him at 3B. That's incorrect: he may advance beyond the awarded base at his own risk, and he doesn't get to go back to 2B if put out at 3B.

[ALStripes17]

This is not correct. The way to think of the balk penalty here is a live-ball award, similar to an OBS award. R1 is protected to 2B, but he may advance beyond the awarded base at his own risk.

There's a (OBR, obviously) case play somewhere in which R1 steals, F1 balks and pitches wild, and R1 is thrown out at 3B. The out stands.

If you were right and we awarded him 3B on the balk, then we'd keep him at 3B. That's incorrect: he may advance beyond the awarded base at his own risk, and he doesn't get to go back to 2B if put out at 3B.

Yes, I am way out of it today. I kept reading that whole scenario as an R2 and confused myself. Thanks maven.

Mea culpa@noumpere

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[maven]

Yeah, I wondered how "R2" crept in there!

[Jimurray]

21 minutes ago, ALStripes17 said:

 

 

We don't 'let R1 stay at 3B on a pitch to the backstop.' Technically, we are awarding him 3B on the balk since he (R2) and the batter did not advance. Balks are either entirely enforced or entirely ignored. The runner is unable to take any more bases on a pitch in your scenario since the batter did not reach 1B (balk must be enforced). If there is no pitch in the scenario and a balk occurs, then the 'ignore the balk' caveat only applies to runners advancing one base and the batter is excluded (because he would have never had a chance to become a BR anyway).

 

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Per PBUC, balks are also acknowledged as in your case. You are not awarding R1 3B. He attained it on his own.

[basejester]

The catcher catching a pitch almost always stops the action.  So there's little practical difference between killing it when the action stops and killing it when the pitch is caught.  My intuition about the intent of the rule is that offense should be allowed to keep trying to advance.  The defensive infraction shouldn't prevent the offense from doing their thing.

 

[blue23ll]

This thread gave me a headache..OUCH

[Ironhead17]

This is one case where the Fed balk rule makes your life easier. OBR balk rule is tough on new guys who do Fed and then transition to leagues w/ OBR.