Base award?

[maven]

Here's a play that happened last night (not my game). FED, though that's not salient.

SITUATION: R1, R2, 1 out. B3 hits a slow ground ball to F6, who throws to F3 to retire the BR (no play on the other runners). F3 steps back across the base in order to catch the ball, and after catching it, the BR non-maliciously contacts him. The ball pops out of his glove and rolls out of play.

RULING ON THE FIELD: B3 is out. The ball is dead when it goes out of play, so award R2 a base beyond 3B (scores) and R1 a base beyond 2B (3B). The head coach for the offense argued that R1 should be scored on the overthrow.

Thoughts?

[udbrky]

Is he ruled out for INT on the contact? Wouldn't that be an immediate dead ball and the resulting rolling out of play be negated?

 

As far as awards, I'm going with TOP since it is the first play on the batter. R1 to 3rd, R2 scores.

[maven]

The umpires ruled no INT, as there was no intentional act to dislodge the ball.

[udbrky]

So ruled a catch? Wasn't sure in the description if it was ruled that he had secure possession.

Still going with TOP, since the ball went out of play during the course of making the first attempt on the batter-runner. If F3 drops it and F4 comes to get it and accidentally kicks it out of play, then I go with 2 bases at the time when F4 kicked it, so most likely scoring both.

[noumpere]

Either F3 did NOT catch the throw, so it's two bases for all TOP.

 

Or F3 did catch the throw (the first throw is over; that part of the award no longer applies) and it's two bases "TOT" (with "Throw" being when the ball left F3's glove)

[Ironhead17]

TOT gets my vote. Score them both. Very unfortunate for the defense since the "force" was not of their doing.

[scrounge]

So....why should there be any award? If the ball is ruled to be a catch, then the throw/play is over. So by ruling it a catch, the throw couldn't have been the thing that imparted the force or impetus to the ball to go out of play, it was the non-malicious collision.

[maven]

58 minutes ago, scrounge said:

So....why should there be any award? If the ball is ruled to be a catch, then the throw/play is over. So by ruling it a catch, the throw couldn't have been the thing that imparted the force or impetus to the ball to go out of play, it was the non-malicious collision.

A live ball in play is either a pitched ball, a batted ball, or a thrown ball. Clearly, this ball was not a pitch or a batted ball. That leaves a thrown ball.

Unless the offense intentionally throws, kicks, or otherwise forces the ball out of play, it's on the defense when a thrown ball leaves live ball territory. This must be an award. The ONLY question (about the award) is TOT or TOP.

1 hour ago, Ironhead17 said:

TOT gets my vote. Score them both. Very unfortunate for the defense since the "force" was not of their doing.

Whose crap throw moved F3 into the BR's path? C'mon, man!

[maven]

Here's my ruling (from our forthcoming association bulletin):

RULING: This play has many facets. First, consider the contact between B3 and F3. If the contact is non-malicious and B3 was not intentionally trying to dislodge the ball, then it is merely incidental. So it is not malicious contact or interference by B3. Because F3 held the ball when the contact occurred, it cannot be obstruction. Thus, the contact is merely incidental, a “train wreck,” even if one or both players is injured.

A thrown ball out of play is always a 2 base award. The issue in this play is whether the award should be from the time of pitch (TOP) or time of throw (TOT). By rule, the base award for a ball thrown out of play is from TOT unless it is the first play by an infielder. (8-3-5)

In this play, we must first judge whether F3 held the ball securely in his glove: note that the requirement by rule is secure possession of the ball, NOT voluntary release (the applicable rule is 2-24-1 FORCE OUT, not CATCH). If we rule that F3 tagged 1B and held the ball securely before it was dislodged, then B3 is out, and the “first play by an infielder” is over. When the ball pops out and rolls out of play, the defense is responsible, just as if they had deflected, kicked, or thrown it out of play. So in this case, we would award R1 and R2 two bases from TOT: if they reached their advance bases prior to the collision at 1B, as seems likely, then they would BOTH score. The next batter would be up with bases empty and 2 outs.

If we judge that F3 did NOT have secure possession for even a moment before the ball popped out, then the deflection out of play would still be part of the “first play by an infielder.” B3 would thus be safe on the play, and the two base award to all runners would be from TOP: R2 would score, R1 to 3B, and B3 to 2B. The next batter would be up with R2, R3 and 2 outs.

 

[scrounge]

54 minutes ago, maven said:

A live ball in play is either a pitched ball, a batted ball, or a thrown ball. Clearly, this ball was not a pitch or a batted ball. That leaves a thrown ball.

Unless the offense intentionally throws, kicks, or otherwise forces the ball out of play, it's on the defense when a thrown ball leaves live ball territory. This must be an award. The ONLY question (about the award) is TOT or TOP.

Whose crap throw moved F3 into the BR's path? C'mon, man!

How can it be a thrown ball when the throw is over? If the throw isn't over, there can't have been enough control to call the out...but the out was called, so secure possession was ruled.

Consider cases 8.3.3k and 8.3.3l, where force is discussed. In those cases, the force of the initial hit is over and the new force of the player is what caused the out of play. While 8.3.3k does say the kick out of play is the same as throwing it, it clearly also says that the player who applied the force is the same as if that player threw it. But what if it's an offensive player applying that force? Do the rules even really address such a situation of a non-malicious offensive player force causing an out-of-play?

This is admittedly more 'devils advocate', as I agree that it's almost always a 2 base award from something (TOT/TOP), but in this very unique case, it's a bit murky on what exactly the status is and who applied the force.

[noumpere]

What if F3 dropped the ball and BR accidentally kicked (to the extent that's not an oxymoron) it out of play?  Most here would have no problem awarding bases.  Same in the OP.

[maven]

1 hour ago, scrounge said:

How can it be a thrown ball when the throw is over? If the throw isn't over, there can't have been enough control to call the out...but the out was called, so secure possession was ruled.

Consider cases 8.3.3k and 8.3.3l, where force is discussed. In those cases, the force of the initial hit is over and the new force of the player is what caused the out of play. While 8.3.3k does say the kick out of play is the same as throwing it, it clearly also says that the player who applied the force is the same as if that player threw it. But what if it's an offensive player applying that force? Do the rules even really address such a situation of a non-malicious offensive player force causing an out-of-play?

This is admittedly more 'devils advocate', as I agree that it's almost always a 2 base award from something (TOT/TOP), but in this very unique case, it's a bit murky on what exactly the status is and who applied the force.

I don't think the status is murky at all. As I said, every live ball in play is a pitched, batted, or thrown ball. There is no other possible status. When this ball leaves LBT, it's a "thrown" ball. It doesn't matter how many previous throws took place, it's still a thrown ball, because it's not a pitched or batted ball.

Now there is a legitimate question regarding who sends the ball out of play. The defense is obviously not responsible for an offensive player intentionally sending (by kicking or, less likely, throwing) the ball out of play. That just kills it, with no base award (5-1-1g); there's no penalty unless the action constitutes INT, which it might well do under 8-4-2g.

There's nothing murky about that either, though it's a judgment call whether the offensive player intentionally sent the ball out of play. As with all judgment calls, some can be borderline, and in that event the offense gets the benefit of the doubt (because the defense should have control of the ball).

[scrounge]

14 minutes ago, maven said:

I don't think the status is murky at all. As I said, every live ball in play is a pitched, batted, or thrown ball. There is no other possible status. When this ball leaves LBT, it's a "thrown" ball. It doesn't matter how many previous throws took place, it's still a thrown ball, because it's not a pitched or batted ball.

This is indeed the key phrase. But is it axiomatic by black letter? I certainly agree it is strongly implied by interpretation, but where does it actually state this? 2.6 clearly defines a batted ball, and 8.3.3 cases pretty well define that. So that one's out for this context. Similarly for the end of a pitch, that's well defined.

But the rub comes for thrown. That doesn't quite have a clear definition. 2.37.1 defines the *start* of the throw as voluntarily losing possession of the ball for purposes other than pitch. But it and not much else defines the *end* of the throw, though showing secure possession of a ball for tagging a base seems like it couldn't be anything other than the end of the throw. If the original throw is over, releasing the ball because an offensive player ran into you could hardly be called voluntary. If the original throw isn't over? Well, that's a

Case 8.3.3k talks about a new force, a kick, being treated as if it was a thrown ball, but it notably doesn't say that it IS a thrown ball. That's the murky case - it ties the force to the status.

I realize we are deep, deep, DEEP into pedantry - not that there's anything wrong with that - but it seems we're treating this odd case as a thrown ball by default and exclusion of being a pitch/batted ball, when at least what I can read, a ball in hand isn't quite fully addressed.