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Bad throw to first, B/R misses first ....

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Ok ...I'd like everyone to first pardon my caffeine free morning brain-fart post ....

Yesterday, Varsity league rivalry game, 2nd inning ....  bouncer to F5, throw takes F3 off the bag and up as he must jump, B/R misses first (not perfectly clear, but.....     Now, after B/R returns to first, then F3 tags him (while he's standing on first) and said to me ....'blue he missed first' ....I just signaled safe, and off we went.

Question though (and here's the brain-fart):   If F3 said to me, "blue he missed first" and tags B/R as he comes back to first before he arrives, THEN he would be out, if in fact, he missed first. Yes?   And further, .... F3 must tag the B/R, NOT just touch first, correct?

Fart....fart.....fart...........

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Ok ...I'd like everyone to first pardon my caffeine free morning brain-fart post ....

Yesterday, Varsity league rivalry game, 2nd inning ....  bouncer to F5, throw takes F3 off the bag and up as he must jump, B/R misses first (not perfectly clear, but.....     Now, after B/R returns to first, then F3 tags him (while he's standing on first) and said to me ....'blue he missed first' ....I just signaled safe, and off we went.

Question though (and here's the brain-fart):   If F3 said to me, "blue he missed first" and tags B/R as he comes back to first before he arrives, THEN he would be out, if in fact, he missed first. Yes?   And further, .... F3 must tag the B/R, NOT just touch first, correct?

Fart....fart.....fart...........

Caffeine-free response:

A valid appeal can be the tag/touch of base or runner, can't it?

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3 minutes ago, ALStripes17 said:

Caffeine-free response:

A valid appeal can be the tag/touch of base or runner, can't it?

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....sip, ...........sip..............

Yes, ...yes it can :)

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....sip, ...........sip..............

Yes, ...yes it can

Sip....sip....

aac56c832c6db020d7c084facd3caee5.jpg

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1 hour ago, Thunderheads said:

....sip, ...........sip..............

Yes, ...yes it can :)

Even when the runner has started to return to the base?  ;)  You either need more caffeine or less -- I'm not sure which.

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1 hour ago, Thunderheads said:

Question...:   If F3 said to me, "blue he missed first" and tags B/R as he comes back to first before he arrives, THEN he would be out, if in fact, he missed first. Yes?   And further, .... F3 must tag the B/R, NOT just touch first, correct?

Correct.

1 hour ago, Thunderheads said:

And further, .... F3 must tag the B/R, NOT just touch first, correct?

Incorrect.

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1 hour ago, ALStripes17 said:

Caffeine-free response:

A valid appeal can be the tag/touch of base or runner, can't it?

No, just a tag of the base or runner. A touch is what a runner does to a base. ;)

When the BR touched 1B, he corrected his baserunning error, and an appeal of it should be denied. Until he does that, any valid appeal may be upheld.

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3 minutes ago, maven said:

No, just a tag of the base or runner. A touch is what a runner does to a base. ;)

When the BR touched 1B, he corrected his baserunning error, and an appeal of it should be denied. Until he does that, any valid appeal may be upheld.

so, a tag of the BR or the bag

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Yeah, talk about terminal caffeine depravation!  It should have read:

Question...:   If F3 said to me, "blue he missed first" and tags B/R as he comes back to first before he arrives, THEN he would be out, if in fact, he missed first. Yes?  

Yes.

And further, .... F3 must tag the B/R, NOT just touch first, correct?

Incorrect.  (Maven's response while I was typing this explains my point.)

 

 

 

 

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No, just a tag of the base or runner. A touch is what a runner does to a base.

When the BR touched 1B, he corrected his baserunning error, and an appeal of it should be denied. Until he does that, any valid appeal may be upheld.

While a touch (in the sense of appeal verbiage) does not apply fielder -> runner ... It does apply fielder -> base

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Our state rules interpreter words it like this:

MISSED BASE AT FIRST – We have had a couple emails this past week concerning handling a play where the batter beats the ball to first base, but fails to touch the bag. In one instance the author of the email argued that the batter was still out when the first baseman gloved the throw, even though the batter had run past the bag.  Unfortunately, this is not correct. When the NFHS brought back the appeal rule, the way we handle such a play changed. An appeal of a missed base must be intentional; there is no unintentional appeal, even on a base involved in a force play. In this play, the batter beat the play at first; the umpire is to signal safe. It is up to the defense to then legally appeal the base before the runner comes back and touches it. This is true at all bases except at home. There, on a missed base and a beat throw or tag, no signal is to be given. So, again, if the batter beats the throw to first, but does miss the base, we are to signal and rule safe. The defense must appeal his missing the base before he returns.

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8 minutes ago, ElkOil said:

This is true at all bases except at home. There, on a missed base and a beat throw or tag, no signal is to be given.

Except a force play on R3: in that case, the mechanic is the same as that used at 1B, and for the same reason. The runner may legally overrun the base without liability to be put out for being off the base.

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55 minutes ago, ElkOil said:

Our state rules interpreter words it like this:

MISSED BASE AT FIRST – We have had a couple emails this past week concerning handling a play where the batter beats the ball to first base, but fails to touch the bag. In one instance the author of the email argued that the batter was still out when the first baseman gloved the throw, even though the batter had run past the bag.  Unfortunately, this is not correct. When the NFHS brought back the appeal rule, the way we handle such a play changed. An appeal of a missed base must be intentional; there is no unintentional appeal, even on a base involved in a force play. In this play, the batter beat the play at first; the umpire is to signal safe. It is up to the defense to then legally appeal the base before the runner comes back and touches it. This is true at all bases except at home. There, on a missed base and a beat throw or tag, no signal is to be given. So, again, if the batter beats the throw to first, but does miss the base, we are to signal and rule safe. The defense must appeal his missing the base before he returns.

I am not sure i understand this ruling?  If a runner misses the base on a force play and the defensive team tags the base before the runner touches the base how can we call them safe?  I would like to know the rule that is being applied to make this ruling so that I can have this for future reference.  Thanks and have a blessed day.

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2 minutes ago, Storm13 said:

I am not sure i understand this ruling?  If a runner misses the base on a force play and the defensive team tags the base before the runner touches the base how can we call them safe?  I would like to know the rule that is being applied to make this ruling so that I can have this for future reference.  Thanks and have a blessed day.

@maven has replied to a similar question a while ago and I still remember the gist of it. Let's see if I can correctly paraphrase...

Touching a base and acquiring a base are two different things. Once the BR runs past 1B, he has acquired it, even though he hasn't touched it. So by indicating safe, we're stating the runner acquired the base. Then runner can correct his missed touch by returning to the base before the defense appeals.

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32 minutes ago, ElkOil said:

@maven has replied to a similar question a while ago and I still remember the gist of it. Let's see if I can correctly paraphrase...

Touching a base and acquiring a base are two different things. Once the BR runs past 1B, he has acquired it, even though he hasn't touched it. So by indicating safe, we're stating the runner acquired the base. Then runner can correct his missed touch by returning to the base before the defense appeals.

Thank you for explaining that for me.  

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1 hour ago, Storm13 said:

I am not sure i understand this ruling?  If a runner misses the base on a force play and the defensive team tags the base before the runner touches the base how can we call them safe?  I would like to know the rule that is being applied to make this ruling so that I can have this for future reference.  Thanks and have a blessed day.

Your question runs together two distinct events, on which we rule independently.

The first is the initial play on the BR. When he passes 1B (without touching it), he has acquired it by rule, pending appeal. When he does so before F3 tags the base, the runner has beaten the ball. This event calls for a ruling: did ball beat runner, or did runner beat ball? If runner beat ball — acquired the base before the fielder tagged the base — then we signal and verbalize the safe call.

The second event is the appeal of the missed base. If he turns to us and says, "he missed the base!" or the equivalent, and he tags the base or the runner off the base, then we would grant the appeal and signal and verbalize the out call.

It can look awkward if these 2 events happen in close succession, but they are 2 distinct plays, each requiring its own call. A similar sequence can occur when a runner steals a base, is initially safe, but then after a moment loses his balance and is tagged while off the base. We're not contradicting ourselves: we're ruling safe on the first play, and out on the second.

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This situation still has me troubled. The last time i commented on the old post I was told i read the rules too literally.   But.........

 

6.05 A batter is out when—

(j) After a third strike or after he hits a fair ball, he or first base is tagged before he touches first base;

 

7.01 A runner acquires the right to an unoccupied base when he touches it before he is out. He is then entitled to it until he is put out, or forced to vacate it for another runner legally entitled to that base

 

6.09 The batter becomes a runner when— (a) He hits a fair ball; (b) The third strike called by the umpire is not caught, providing (1) first base is unoccupied, or (2) first base is occupied with two out;

 

10 hours ago, maven said:

When he passes 1B (without touching it), he has acquired it by rule

Can you state the rule? above is what i have found, and i would really like to understand what I'm not getting.........

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This situation still has me troubled. The last time i commented on the old post I was told i read the rules too literally.   But.........

 

6.05 A batter is out when—

(j) After a third strike or after he hits a fair ball, he or first base is tagged before he touches first base;

 

7.01 A runner acquires the right to an unoccupied base when he touches it before he is out. He is then entitled to it until he is put out, or forced to vacate it for another runner legally entitled to that base

 

6.09 The batter becomes a runner when— (a) He hits a fair ball; (b) The third strike called by the umpire is not caught, providing (1) first base is unoccupied, or (2) first base is occupied with two out;

 

Can you state the rule? above is what i have found, and i would really like to understand what I'm not getting.........

There are official interpretations that govern how we apply the rules. It is interpreted (because of the ability to appeal) that once a runner passes a base in any way, he has acquired it for the purposes of advancing.. Although this may not be a legal acquisition, we treat it as such until the defense legally claims a violation (appeal).

Also, OBR recodified their rulebook. New cite numbers for rules

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6 hours ago, Dbellyflop said:

This situation still has me troubled. The last time i commented on the old post I was told i read the rules too literally.   But.........

 

6.05 A batter is out when—

(j) After a third strike or after he hits a fair ball, he or first base is tagged before he touches first base;

 

7.01 A runner acquires the right to an unoccupied base when he touches it before he is out. He is then entitled to it until he is put out, or forced to vacate it for another runner legally entitled to that base

 

6.09 The batter becomes a runner when— (a) He hits a fair ball; (b) The third strike called by the umpire is not caught, providing (1) first base is unoccupied, or (2) first base is occupied with two out;

 

Can you state the rule? above is what i have found, and i would really like to understand what I'm not getting.........

I would answer this in two parts. One - while it isn't in the rules in this section, it is rightly inferred from the appeal procedures. Since there is a defined appeal and a clear way that the appeal can become moot (next play, pitch, etc), then we can conclude that absent a defensive appeal, the runner has indeed acquired the base. Also, related to this, our interpretations and mechanics reinforce this.

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8 hours ago, Dbellyflop said:

This situation still has me troubled. The last time i commented on the old post I was told i read the rules too literally.   But.........

 

6.05 A batter is out when—

(j) After a third strike or after he hits a fair ball, he or first base is tagged before he touches first base;

 

7.01 A runner acquires the right to an unoccupied base when he touches it before he is out. He is then entitled to it until he is put out, or forced to vacate it for another runner legally entitled to that base

 

6.09 The batter becomes a runner when— (a) He hits a fair ball; (b) The third strike called by the umpire is not caught, providing (1) first base is unoccupied, or (2) first base is occupied with two out;

 

Can you state the rule? above is what i have found, and i would really like to understand what I'm not getting.........

First, please be aware that this thread is in the HS section. OBR citations are not appropriate (even though the rule and mechanics are the same).

Second, FED 8-2-8 states the same as OBR: a runner acquires the RIGHT to a base by touching it. That right entitles him to the base until he is put out or forced to advance, as the rule states. This is a claim about how a runner becomes entitled to a base, and nothing follows about missed bases.

I don't think you are reading these rules too literally. They simply don't answer the question you're asking, which concerns how we should treat a runner (in this thread, the BR) who misses a base. According to 8-2-8, such a BR is NOT entitled to 1B, because he has NOT touched it. No argument there.

The operative rule is 8-4-1f: the BR is out "if any fielder, while holding the ball in his grasp, touches first base or touches first base with the ball before the batter-runner touches first base." Based on that statement, we might wonder why the BR isn't out according to this rule: even though the BR passed the base before the tag, F3 has tagged it before the touch. Why isn't that an out?

Because we require the defense to appeal a missed base. And until then? What is the runner's status? He's not out automatically (FED ditched the automatic appeal some 20 years ago, and the accidental appeal soon after). If he's not out, then he's safe, pending appeal. And that entails that he has acquired the base, pending appeal. Not the RIGHT to it — a proper appeal will be granted, so he IS liable to be out — but we're going to call him safe because he beat the throw. To do otherwise would contradict the appeal rules.

So the key is fitting all the pieces together, and using the rules as a system, rather than piecemeal. It would be a good idea for FED to include a case play on this, just to clarify the situation (are you listening, @lawump?).

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25 minutes ago, maven said:

So the key is fitting all the pieces together, and using the rules as a system, rather than piecemeal. It would be a good idea for FED to include a case play on this, just to clarify the situation (are you listening, @lawump?).

8.2.2E  and 8.2.2M taken together seem to come pretty close.  Given the overall confusion on this play, though, I agree that something specific might be needed.

 

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I'm just adding to my list for the committee meeting in June.

 

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I would have never guessed in a million years that if a runner did not touch 1st base that he/she had acquired the base...and would never have guessed that an appeal would be needed in order for the defensive player to get an out of a player that has not touched the base.  Guess I am wrong...lol

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I would have never guessed in a million years that if a runner did not touch 1st base that he/she had acquired the base...and would never have guessed that an appeal would be needed in order for the defensive player to get an out of a player that has not touched the base.  Guess I am wrong...lol

If that was the case, following runners would pass runners that missed bases (since they didn't acquire it when they missed it) and there would be no protocol necessary for appeals on missed bases

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