Balk or No Balk

[Thunderheads]

An umpire working at a high-school seeing pitches video taped a pitcher warming up, and noticed what he was doing ....and....posted it to facebook and it's turned into an argument (shocker).    Thoughts?

PS ... it's a big file, so it'll download on your computer and you can open it in your 'video player' from there.  If someone can embed it for me, that'd be great!

 

Balk No Balk (1).MPG

[maven]

This is pretty close to a start/stop balk (double set). I would certainly warn for this. If he pauses another fraction of a second, that's clearly a balk.

 

[Thunderheads]

1 minute ago, maven said:

This is pretty close to a start/stop balk (double set). I would certainly warn for this. If he pauses another fraction of a second, that's clearly a balk.

 

based on the video evidence alone .... that's a start/stop ........(IMHO  )

[maven]

Just now, Thunderheads said:

based on the video evidence alone .... that's a start/stop ........(IMHO  )

I should have added: were I evaluating umpires, I would expect this to be addressed, either with a warning or a balk call. Either is supportable; doing nothing is not.

So I wouldn't disagree with you, Jeff.

[noumpere]

I think we've had this discussion before based on some MLB pitcher(s).  And, it's not called there so the youth see it and start to copy it, and .... here we are.

[Welpe]

Jeff, 11mb is considered a big file still? What is this, 1999?

I think the pitcher keeps his feet moving just enough that this isn't a start-stop balk but it is very very close.

[Jeff C.]

I would balk for a start/stop.  I actually saw something similar two years ago in a regional semi-final game.  No call.  Coach came out and the umpire sold it well. 

[Jimurray]

I have continuous motion to his complete and discernable stop. 

[Thunderheads]

Just now, Jimurray said:

I have continuous motion to his complete and discernable stop. 

where's that?

[Jimurray]

2 minutes ago, Thunderheads said:

where's that?

Where nothing is moving.

[Thunderheads]

Just now, Jimurray said:

Where nothing is moving.

oh,....like at his waist and at his chest

[Jimurray]

8 minutes ago, Thunderheads said:

oh,....like at his waist and at his chest

If you think he had a stop at his waist then go ahead and balk him. 

[Thunderheads]

2 minutes ago, Jimurray said:

If you think he had a stop at his waist then go ahead and balk him. 

Jim, you honestly see constant movement from that angle/video?

[Jimurray]

Just now, Thunderheads said:

Jim, you honestly see constant movement from that angle/video?

That's my story and I'm sticking to it if someone complains. I haven't seen a coach or runner who has been perturbed by guys that do this.

Or this: 

 

[scrounge]

I'm with @maven on this...at a minimum warn him. If he wants to live THAT close to the edge of the cliff, don't be surprised if he falls off a lot.

 

[BT_Blue]

I'm with @Jimurray. I have him still moving his feet when he stops his hands at his waist. From what i remember from the video, i dont have him coming to a full stop until he stops his hands at his head. 

[Thunderheads]

3 hours ago, BT_Blue said:

I'm with @Jimurray. I have him still moving his feet when he stops his hands at his waist. From what i remember from the video, i dont have him coming to a full stop until he stops his hands at his head. 

nope.  he stops moving his feet...at the waist, he's stopped (FROM THIS camera angle)

[ElkOil]

I'd call a balk. You can over analyze it through the gift of video, but just seeing it once, I'd call it.

[noumpere]

I called one on a similar "double set" today.  Pitcher protested.  Coach didn't.

[stkjock]

 

On 2/16/2016 at 0:26 PM, Jimurray said:

I have continuous motion to his complete and discernable stop. 

9 hours ago, BT_Blue said:

I'm with @Jimurray. I have him still moving his feet when he stops his hands at his waist. From what i remember from the video, i dont have him coming to a full stop until he stops his hands at his head. 

I would agree

On 2/16/2016 at 0:43 PM, Thunderheads said:

Jim, you honestly see constant movement from that angle/video?

I see his back leg continuing to move while the hands pause at the belt, then front leg moves again.

 

However, in real time, as a coach I could easily see it called a balk

 

[Storm13]

I am the rookie here but I would call.  Just watching it the single time there seems to be a clear stop start to me.  Just my thoughts.  

[maven]

Guys: there's really not too much at stake (beyond ego) in disputes about judgment.

In general, film study is good for a number of things. It can promote better mechanics, as we get to see where we have the best angles to rule on plays. It can help us look where we need to look to make the right call (think about our recent conversations about PU starting at 3BLX and rotating to stay in F2's "pocket" on plays at the plate). And it can remind us which rules are applicable to unusual plays.

Assessing judgment on film is dicey, partly because we often have just one angle (and not the same one as the calling official), and we also have slow motion, which calling officials lack (and slo-mo makes everything look illegal). It's easy to replay this clip over and over and focus on different body parts and break it down to see whether there's a stop. Of course, nobody could do it like that on the field.

That's why I wrote what I wrote above: in the heat of action, I probably couldn't tell whether this exact move was a double set or just borderline. That's why I would expect umpires to address it: if it's not illegal, it's damn close. In such cases, we usually err on the side of not calling a balk. Warn him, and get him when he does it again and it's clearly illegal. If somebody judged that this was over the line, I could support that, too.

Going to the mat over this particular clip is not going to make any of us a better umpire.

[elares]

On 2/16/2016 at 6:19 AM, maven said:

This is pretty close to a start/stop balk (double set). I would certainly warn for this. If he pauses another fraction of a second, that's clearly a balk.

 

What's the phrasing on that warning?

I'm new to FED ball and I wonder how that would go.  I would love to grab a new tool for my tool box here.  Thanks in advance.

[maven]

20 minutes ago, elares said:

What's the phrasing on that warning?

I'm new to FED ball and I wonder how that would go.  I would love to grab a new tool for my tool box here.  Thanks in advance.

I don't have anything official. "You're almost coming set twice. Make sure it's one continuous motion to come set." I dunno, that's a lot of words... what would you say?

[BT_Blue]

11 hours ago, maven said:

Guys: there's really not too much at stake (beyond ego) in disputes about judgment.

In general, film study is good for a number of things. It can promote better mechanics, as we get to see where we have the best angles to rule on plays. It can help us look where we need to look to make the right call (think about our recent conversations about PU starting at 3BLX and rotating to stay in F2's "pocket" on plays at the plate). And it can remind us which rules are applicable to unusual plays.

Assessing judgment on film is dicey, partly because we often have just one angle (and not the same one as the calling official), and we also have slow motion, which calling officials lack (and slo-mo makes everything look illegal). It's easy to replay this clip over and over and focus on different body parts and break it down to see whether there's a stop. Of course, nobody could do it like that on the field.

That's why I wrote what I wrote above: in the heat of action, I probably couldn't tell whether this exact move was a double set or just borderline. That's why I would expect umpires to address it: if it's not illegal, it's damn close. In such cases, we usually err on the side of not calling a balk. Warn him, and get him when he does it again and it's clearly illegal. If somebody judged that this was over the line, I could support that, too.

Going to the mat over this particular clip is not going to make any of us a better umpire.

He isn't the Member of the Month for nothing!